Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Weird Headset lockring w/ 3 notches

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Weird Headset lockring w/ 3 notches

Old 08-12-06, 10:10 PM
  #1  
rat_factory
= cyclist's tan
Thread Starter
 
rat_factory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: the big D in the big T
Posts: 297

Bikes: '82 Miyata 310, '87 Scott Boulder, '87 Schwinn Le Tour, '91 Cannondale SM500, '96 Schwinn Clear Creek, '99 Schwinn MesaGS, '05 Rockhopper

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Weird Headset lockring w/ 3 notches

I never overhauled my headset because it's never given me any problems, but due to this bike's age I thought I would. Usually you remove the locking top nut, then pull off the keyed washer and unscrew the top cup. Well here is a picture of my '82 Miyata 310 and i'm guessing the headset is Suntour or Shimano -- no visible markings yet revealed.





It has three evenly spaced notches and does not appear to be keyed. When I go to slide it off, it does not budge in any direction. I even gently clamped it with leather jawed channel locks and wiggled it without results.

Any ideas? This design is also missing the wrench flats for the adjusting cup. It has a knurled ring on the cup like some threadless headsets. It also has pointed locking teeth you can see in the first photo, maybe to replace the keyed washer? Has anybody run into this design before?
rat_factory is offline  
Old 08-12-06, 10:16 PM
  #2  
redtires
Extra Medium Member
 
redtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Erie, Co
Posts: 1,862

Bikes: Scott Spark for the dirt; Fezzari Empire for the road.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 7 Posts
This is just an older style headset, that I THINK was made by Tange. That lockring with the three notches is exactly that, a lockring. It's threaded on to the steerer tube, not slid on like a "normal" spacer. The proper tool would most likely be extremely difficult to track down, but you should be able to use a lockring wrench that is made for a BB lockring. Also, be aware that your headset may very well have loose ball bearings rather than ones contained in a cage, thus they will fall out all over the floor when you remove the cups. Be prepared to catch them!!
redtires is offline  
Old 08-12-06, 10:27 PM
  #3  
rat_factory
= cyclist's tan
Thread Starter
 
rat_factory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: the big D in the big T
Posts: 297

Bikes: '82 Miyata 310, '87 Scott Boulder, '87 Schwinn Le Tour, '91 Cannondale SM500, '96 Schwinn Clear Creek, '99 Schwinn MesaGS, '05 Rockhopper

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
I've tried my Park HCW-13 BB wrench and its so huge that the tooth disengages before the rounded edge of the tool can even contact the locking. Fudge.

Oh and I always end up bending the bearing retainers somehow when popping out the old bearings and putting in new ones, so I usually use loose bb's anyway.
rat_factory is offline  
Old 08-12-06, 10:35 PM
  #4  
rat_factory
= cyclist's tan
Thread Starter
 
rat_factory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: the big D in the big T
Posts: 297

Bikes: '82 Miyata 310, '87 Scott Boulder, '87 Schwinn Le Tour, '91 Cannondale SM500, '96 Schwinn Clear Creek, '99 Schwinn MesaGS, '05 Rockhopper

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
my BB pin spanner doesn't work either...
rat_factory is offline  
Old 08-12-06, 10:54 PM
  #5  
redtires
Extra Medium Member
 
redtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Erie, Co
Posts: 1,862

Bikes: Scott Spark for the dirt; Fezzari Empire for the road.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 7 Posts
well....shoot. I guess you could do a couple of things here. One is buy an new headset and then use a pair of pliers to get the lockring off. If you ruin the headset, at least you'd have a new one to put in. And if the pliers work, just return the headset...although I hate returning stuff..lol. But really, that entire headset is steel, so wrenching on it a bit should'nt hurt too much. Another little trick is to take a large flat screwdriver and gentley tap one of the notches until it is loose enough to turn by hand. I've certainly used this method on a few old BB's with no ill results.
redtires is offline  
Old 08-12-06, 10:58 PM
  #6  
rat_factory
= cyclist's tan
Thread Starter
 
rat_factory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: the big D in the big T
Posts: 297

Bikes: '82 Miyata 310, '87 Scott Boulder, '87 Schwinn Le Tour, '91 Cannondale SM500, '96 Schwinn Clear Creek, '99 Schwinn MesaGS, '05 Rockhopper

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Bike Tools etc has this "Small Hook Spanner." It looks promising. I'll ask the staff.



this looks good too:
https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...tem_id=HZ-C205
rat_factory is offline  
Likes For rat_factory:
Old 08-12-06, 11:14 PM
  #7  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 440 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
It looks like a copy of a Stronlight P-3. I wouldn't surprise me if it was a Tange. They made copys of High end european headsets. I have one that looks almost exactly like a Stronglight Competition.

Is that a setscrew I'm seeing to the left of the notch in the top picture? If so, you definitely need to loosen it. The ring with the teeth is not threaded and needs to come straight up. Sometimes you can loosen things up by tightening the "adjusting cup" slightly. (I think it's technically a cone.)

Don't reuse retainers. Always use loose balls, especially in used headsets. It changes the spacing of the balls and delays the onset of indexing.

Good luck!
Grand Bois is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 02:59 AM
  #8  
Moose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,396
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dirtdrop
The ring with the teeth is not threaded and needs to come straight up.
Nope, it is definitely threaded.
Moose is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 04:55 AM
  #9  
Noam Zane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Incredible, just incredible.

I'm marvelling that someone that can have a stable of bikes and claim to love wrenching yet is stymied by a common, conventionally threaded headset design. Then I see that you're twenty one y/o and it falls into place.
Noam Zane is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 05:20 AM
  #10  
top506
Death fork? Naaaah!!
 
top506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The other Maine, north of RT 2
Posts: 5,118

Bikes: Seriously downsizing.

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 499 Post(s)
Liked 358 Times in 177 Posts
A hammer and a small punch set in one of the notches should tap it loose enough to unscrew.
If you're a barbarian a big pair of channel locks will work, too.
Top
top506 is offline  
Likes For top506:
Old 08-13-06, 06:11 AM
  #11  
HillRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,245

Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1815 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 751 Times in 546 Posts
Originally Posted by Noam Zane
I'm marvelling that someone that can have a stable of bikes and claim to love wrenching yet is stymied by a common, conventionally threaded headset design.
The headset in question isn't "conventionally threaded". I've worked on a lot of conventional threaded headsets over the past 20+ years and never came across one with a separate lock ring below the top nut so this design is a bit unusual.

I agree there appears to be a set screw in the notched ring that must be loosened before the ring can be unthreaded. The punch and mallet technique works well for removing notched lockrings if the right spanner isn't available.
HillRider is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 07:22 AM
  #12  
dafydd
JRA...
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: philly
Posts: 839

Bikes: trek 520 & 736, DeRosa Professional, Fuji Professional, Raleigh International 3-speed, Saronni (any info people?), Humber 3-speed, Raleigh Sports, Carlton Grand Prix coming soon!

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rat_factory
Bike Tools etc has this "Small Hook Spanner." It looks promising. I'll ask the staff.
the hozan BB lockring tool has a smaller spanner on one side for this purpose. headsets like these are very common on 80s japanese bikes, although i don't know who made them, tange or hatta i guess. my theory on the design is that you can fudge with brake cable stops or reflector brackets without readjusting the headset. nice in theory, but can be a real pain to adjust sometimes.

i've never seen one of these with a set screw.
dafydd is offline  
Likes For dafydd:
Old 08-13-06, 07:36 AM
  #13  
top506
Death fork? Naaaah!!
 
top506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The other Maine, north of RT 2
Posts: 5,118

Bikes: Seriously downsizing.

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 499 Post(s)
Liked 358 Times in 177 Posts
Originally Posted by HillRider
The headset in question isn't "conventionally threaded". I've worked on a lot of conventional threaded headsets over the past 20+ years and never came across one with a separate lock ring below the top nut so this design is a bit unusual.
I have that very headset in front of me, stripped off a Miyata 312. The lock ring is indeed threaded, and does not have a setscrew.
Top
top506 is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 07:51 AM
  #14  
Noam Zane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
There is no set screw. This is not some exotic bit of obscure enginneering. It is a very common and straight forward style of headset. For those youngsters encountering it for the first time just a bare minimum of mechanical aptitude is required to figure it out. The tool needed for a non-cob-job is a basic small hook wrench that belongs in the toolbox of anyone who considers themselves a semi-competent bicycle mechanic.
Noam Zane is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 08:41 AM
  #15  
masiman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 1 Post
Someone missed their conjugal visit.
masiman is offline  
Likes For masiman:
Old 08-13-06, 09:02 AM
  #16  
Hobartlemagne 
Spelling Snob
 
Hobartlemagne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,862

Bikes: Panasonic DX4000, Bianchi Pista

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
I recently removed a lockring like that. I used my standard lockring wrench, and the biggest flathead screwdriver I could find. The wrench is too big of course- the tooth comes out of the notch before
you can get any leverage on it. What I did was put the side-edge of the screwdriver in one of the other
notches to give the wrench something to push against while the tooth still stayed in.

I know its kind of a rigged way to do it, but it worked for me.
__________________

The first rule of flats is You don't talk about flats!
Hobartlemagne is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 10:05 AM
  #17  
simplify
ride, paint, ride
 
simplify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,204

Bikes: Cannondale R300 Caad2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Moose
Nope, it is definitely threaded.
No, Dirtdrop is talking about the ring with *teeth* which is just below the notched ring. The ring with 3 notches IS threaded, with no setscrew, and the ring below that has those accordion-shaped teeth which engage the top of the bearing cup race--and THAT ring is NOT threaded, so it lifts straight up, and then the cup race spins off. I have this exact headset on a 1982 Univega Sportour.
simplify is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 10:09 AM
  #18  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 440 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Moose
Nope, it is definitely threaded.
How would it be possible to turn the ring without disengaging the teeth?
Grand Bois is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 10:34 AM
  #19  
HillRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,245

Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1815 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 751 Times in 546 Posts
Originally Posted by Noam Zane
This is not some exotic bit of obscure enginneering. It is a very common and straight forward style of headset.
Perhaps it is a common design but I've worked on a bunch of Tange, Shimano and similar headsets since the mid-'80's and never came across this particular design with it's lockring.

As to the toothed ring, I have a Tange headset on an late-'80's Trek that has the same toothed ring that engages matching teeth in the top race of the headset just like that shown in the picture above. The ring is not threaded but has an internal tab that goes into the vertical keyway in the fork steerer. The tab keeps it from rotating but it is removed by pulling it straight up.
HillRider is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 11:07 AM
  #20  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 440 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
That's how the older Stronglights work. They have a flat instead of a keyway on French bikes, of course. I like them because the teeth lock in your adjustment. They can't be adjusted as finely as a standard headset, though.
Grand Bois is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 01:01 PM
  #21  
rat_factory
= cyclist's tan
Thread Starter
 
rat_factory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: the big D in the big T
Posts: 297

Bikes: '82 Miyata 310, '87 Scott Boulder, '87 Schwinn Le Tour, '91 Cannondale SM500, '96 Schwinn Clear Creek, '99 Schwinn MesaGS, '05 Rockhopper

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Noam Zane
Incredible, just incredible.

I'm marvelling that someone that can have a stable of bikes and claim to love wrenching yet is stymied by a common, conventionally threaded headset design. Then I see that you're twenty one y/o and it falls into place.
Yes I have a stable of bikes because I love to ride. When did I claim I love wrenching? I do what needs to be done the best way I know how and now I will say I enjoy it. I am 'stymied' because I personally have never seen this type before. And because I don't have a 'small hook spanner' in my 3 years worth of tools I am not compitent?

So you looked at my profile to see how old I am? I see you have no personal info posted because you must protect yourself from such attacks. Good job making yourself feel superior to someone who is not afraid to ask questions. Last time I checked thats what Bikeforums was for. You're a big, big man.

As far as I'm concerned you are a 12 year old that talks out of his arse.

So anyway, there is no setscrew. That is an optical illusion.

I'm still waiting on a reply from Bike Tools, then I believe I wil buy the Park spanner.
rat_factory is offline  
Likes For rat_factory:
Old 08-13-06, 03:08 PM
  #22  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 440 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Some people think their advanced age gives them the right to be rude and obnoxious.
Grand Bois is offline  
Likes For Grand Bois:
Old 08-13-06, 03:35 PM
  #23  
Noam Zane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
And some people think their young years excuse them from a minimal attempt to think things out for themselves. Instead they run to an online forum for some bad advice from similarly able individuals.
Noam Zane is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 03:43 PM
  #24  
AndrewP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Montreal
Posts: 6,521

Bikes: Peugeot Hybrid, Minelli Hybrid

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
The pointed teeth on the buttom of the spacer allow you to index the headset when you adjust it. The spacer is keyed into the slot at the back of the fork. The hook spanner as shown by rat factory is what you need. If you have a hook spanner that is too big you can insert a spacer like a flat screwdriver blade about half way round the C to get a better purchase on the slot.
AndrewP is offline  
Old 08-13-06, 05:00 PM
  #25  
Moose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,396
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by lawkd
No, Dirtdrop is talking about the ring with *teeth* which is just below the notched ring. The ring with 3 notches IS threaded, with no setscrew, and the ring below that has those accordion-shaped teeth which engage the top of the bearing cup race--and THAT ring is NOT threaded, so it lifts straight up, and then the cup race spins off. I have this exact headset on a 1982 Univega Sportour.
Well then in that case he's right that is not threaded, my apologies...I didn't think we were concerned with that part.
Moose is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.