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SunTour rd with DA bar-ends ?? Will it Work?

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SunTour rd with DA bar-ends ?? Will it Work?

Old 10-15-06, 05:31 PM
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CrossChain
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SunTour rd with DA bar-ends ?? Will it Work?

My frankenbike and my checkbook would be happy if I could mate my Shimano 9 spd bar-end shifters to a Shimano 9spd cassette and, here's the rub, an ST XC Pro rd. Is is possible to get good-enough indexing.

**I'm trying to get some use out of the XC and keep SunTour's memory alive.
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Old 10-15-06, 06:31 PM
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Probably not but give it a shot and see. If it works, fine. If not, you were going to have to get a Shimano rd anyway.

My money says you wind up buying a new derailleur.
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Old 10-15-06, 06:36 PM
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The beauty of bar ends is they can be switched to friction mode, so should work just fine as long as you can deal with non-indexed shifting.
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Old 10-15-06, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moose
The beauty of bar ends is they can be switched to friction mode, so should work just fine as long as you can deal with non-indexed shifting.
True but the OP asked if he could get adequate indexing with this set-up. If you use friction anything works with anything.
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Old 10-15-06, 06:57 PM
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As I suspected. Friction is no problem-- I have a pair of Mavic/Simplex retrofrictions that work sweetly on another bike. I'll prolly end up getting a workhorse 105. This bike is for commuting, dirt roads, etc. and I'd prefer indexing.

Thanks all.
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Old 10-15-06, 07:39 PM
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Ummmm.... why wouldn't this work? I'm a little new to wrenching so please correct me if I'm mistaken.

As far as I know, Indexing is determined by how much cable the Shimano 9 sp bar ends pull, which should match the spacing of a Shimano 9 sp cassette. No problem so far. Assuming the RD has enough capacity for the cassette, why won't it just behave and play nice with the Shimano stuff?
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Old 10-15-06, 09:14 PM
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I've tried something close to the opposite, Suntour Accushift bar-ends with Shimano RD and cassette. No dice on indexing. Seems the Suntours pull considerably less cable per shift than Shimano.
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Old 10-15-06, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Steev
I've tried something close to the opposite, Suntour Accushift bar-ends with Shimano RD and cassette. No dice on indexing. Seems the Suntours pull considerably less cable per shift than Shimano.
Correct! If you're clever you can tweak the mechanical advantage of the derailer by adjusting the cable attachment position, as in this trick by Sheldon Brown to make pre-1997 Dura-Ace shifters work with a newer RD: http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#alternate

Not sure if any such hack is possible for the SunTour derailer/Shimano shifter combination
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Old 10-15-06, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by moxfyre
Correct! If you're clever you can tweak the mechanical advantage of the derailer by adjusting the cable attachment position, as in this trick by Sheldon Brown to make pre-1997 Dura-Ace shifters work with a newer RD: http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html#alternate

Not sure if any such hack is possible for the SunTour derailer/Shimano shifter combination
I did try that, still no dice. I saw another way of doing it that involves turning the clamp plate and running the cable around it, haven't tried that yet.
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Old 10-15-06, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Steev
I did try that, still no dice. I saw another way of doing it that involves turning the clamp plate and running the cable around it, haven't tried that yet.
If you figure out a way to do it, I'd sure love to hear it! Got a bunch of perfectly working Accushift bar-ends that I'd like to be able to use with Shimano derailers
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Old 10-16-06, 02:43 AM
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It might sound crazy, but why not sell the SunTour and buy a Shimano. Clean used Shimano rear derailluers are dirt cheap on ebay. There are boat loads of NOS Deore 8 speeds on ebay right now. Prices are real cheap. All Shimano 8 speed rears work with 9 speed. Save yourself the hassle and get the right parts. Good luck

Tim
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Old 10-16-06, 04:41 AM
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I have used Suntour derailleurs with Shimano 7 and 8 speed indexed shifters with no problem. As long as your cassette matches your shifters you should be fine. One problem you might have is your Suntour derailleur may not have the range for the cassette you're using. The only way to find out is to try it. Worst case senario is you have to replace the derailleur. An easy swap.

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Old 10-16-06, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mycoatl
Ummmm.... why wouldn't this work? I'm a little new to wrenching so please correct me if I'm mistaken.

As far as I know, Indexing is determined by how much cable the Shimano 9 sp bar ends pull, which should match the spacing of a Shimano 9 sp cassette. No problem so far. Assuming the RD has enough capacity for the cassette, why won't it just behave and play nice with the Shimano stuff?
Indexing performance is determined by three things:

1. Cassette spacing.
2. Shifter cable pull.
3. Rear derailleur geometry, i.e, how far the derailleur actually moves from a given amount of cable pull.

For a compatible system, all three must match. The OP has the first two but #3 is different and probably won't work. I recommended he try it but don't hold much hope.

BTW, rerouting the cable attachment to the rd is a badly misinterpreted concept. It was done to make 8-speed Dura Ace rd's work with other Shimano groups. It is not a universal fix for every shifting problem.
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Old 10-16-06, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
BTW, rerouting the cable attachment to the rd is a badly misinterpreted concept. It was done to make 8-speed Dura Ace rd's work with other Shimano groups. It is not a universal fix for every shifting problem.
What's misinterpreted about rerouting the cable? 8-speed Dura-Ace shifters and RDs had a throw ratio that was only *slightly* different from other Shimano groups, so a little bit of tweaking could make it work.

With Suntour vs. Shimano, I believe the difference in throw ratio is so great that there's no practical way to make them compatible... but I would LOVE to be proven wrong.
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Old 10-16-06, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by moxfyre
What's misinterpreted about rerouting the cable? 8-speed Dura-Ace shifters and RDs had a throw ratio that was only *slightly* different from other Shimano groups, so a little bit of tweaking could make it work.

With Suntour vs. Shimano, I believe the difference in throw ratio is so great that there's no practical way to make them compatible... but I would LOVE to be proven wrong.
The problem with SunTour, especially 7 speed, is that the spacing is different between the cogs. In their wisdom they choose not to space the freewheel cogs the same. No matter what anyone says, it isn't going to work in the index mode.

Tim
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Old 10-16-06, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cs1
The problem with SunTour, especially 7 speed, is that the spacing is different between the cogs. In their wisdom they choose not to space the freewheel cogs the same. No matter what anyone says, it isn't going to work in the index mode.

Tim
Theory be damned, *I* say it *does* work in indexed mode!

The spacing of SunTour 7-speed is 4.8 mm for the large cogs and 5.0 for the smaller cogs, if I recall correctly. If you line up the center cogs, no cog is more than 0.4 mm away from the corresponding cog on a Shimano 7-speed cassette. 0.4 mm is about as much slop there is in most SunTour derailers, I'd say. My girlfriend's bike currently has a 7-speed Shimano-compatible freewheel with Suntour derailer and shifters, and it indexes JUST FINE.

(Of course this doesn't fix the separate issue of derailer/shifter throw ratio)
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Old 10-16-06, 04:54 PM
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I'm the OP what started this. Currrently I have 7spd ST Accushift barcons working with a 6 speed Shimano Uniglide cassette (still had one laying around). Even in friction mode, the Accushift barcon still has little detentes it lands on-- and they do a good job corresponding with the cassette's supposedly incompatible cog spacing because it's works "almost" indexed as is. Wider cog spacing may allow this lack of precision that works...I'm assuming newer components are more finicky.

Switching to a 9 speed with a new set of wheels upsets all this. A good, cheap NOS Shimano rd will probably be my easiest bet.
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Old 10-16-06, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CrossChain
A good, cheap NOS Shimano rd will probably be my easiest bet.
Agree. Try to find a 9-speed 105 rd. They are good, durable and were available real cheap as soon as 10-speed 105 showed up. BTW, any shimano rd from the 7-speed era to current 10-speed stuff will work (with the exception of pre 9-speed Dura Ace).
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Old 10-16-06, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CrossChain
I'm the OP what started this. Currrently I have 7spd ST Accushift barcons working with a 6 speed Shimano Uniglide cassette (still had one laying around). Even in friction mode, the Accushift barcon still has little detentes it lands on-- and they do a good job corresponding with the cassette's supposedly incompatible cog spacing because it's works "almost" indexed as is. Wider cog spacing may allow this lack of precision that works...I'm assuming newer components are more finicky.

Switching to a 9 speed with a new set of wheels upsets all this. A good, cheap NOS Shimano rd will probably be my easiest bet.
Hey CrossChain, the other alternative is to switch to a new 9 speed cassette and just keep using friction mode. I realize this doesn't sound like much an improvement, but the thing is that Hyperglide cogs (new style, with shift ramps) shift SOOOOOOOO much better in friction mode than old freewheels/cassettes. For example, I have an 8-speed Hyperglide cassette on my touring bike with LX rear derailer and Suntour barcon friction shifters. It shifts super smoothly.

My point is, if you're looking to improve the shifting getting a new-style ramped cassette will improve shifting more than indexing in my experience. Good luck with whatever upgrades you decide to make.
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Old 10-16-06, 06:19 PM
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Since CrossChain wants to use Shimano 9 sp shifter and cassette but doesn't want to buy a Shimano RD, and Moxfyre has lots of Suntour Accushift barcons he wants ot use with Shimano RDs why don't the two of you just trade--CrossCheck's Suntour XC Pro RD for one of Moxfyre's Shimano RD's?
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Old 10-17-06, 11:26 PM
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Tried some different cable routing schemes to get the Suntour shifters to work with Shimano deraillers with no luck. Dug out an old claw mount Suntour derailler from 5 cog freewheel days, pulled off the claw and mounted that to the hanger. That was interesting, one click of the shifter moved about three cogs in the back for the smaller cogs, a little less for the larger cogs. Back to friction mode for me.
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