Fixed Cup Removal
 

Hi,

I have an older Bianchi Pista track frame here, the lugged type from the 80s/90s. It's been a tad neglected mechanically, and there's rust on the bb shell around the fixed cup. I got the adjustable cup off just fine, but I can put all my weight on the fixed cup and it won't budge. I didn't try hammering it, cause I know hammers are typically a no-no. I'd like to salvage this part, and must ensure the frame remains undamaged. I shot penetrating oil at it, but that was limited in effectiveness by my not degreasing it. I don't have any degreaser at the moment, so I can't really try that. Also, I'm considering soaking it in ammonia once I go home for winter break. I also can't do that now cause I don't want to stink up the dorm. Also, I'm thinking I can just put the fixed cup in a bench vice and turn it, but again, can't try that till I get home. I'd rather not take the bike home with me, so if I can just hammer on the tool that'd be cool. If you don't know what kind of bb I mean, it's got paralell flats that the HCW-4 fits.

Thanks,

Kyle

Assuming that this is an English-threaded 68mm bottom bracket shell, the drive-side fixed up unscrews in the opposite direction (turning clockwise) as "normal" threadings. What way have you been trying to turn the fixed cup?

I knew there was something I wasn't telling you. I verified the thread and it's Italian, so I'm turning it counter-clockwise

what are you turning it with?

a fixed cup tool is best(measure...it's either 32mm or 36 across the flats), followed probably by a pair of channel lock pliers. i've never had much luck with an adjustable wrench, but the other two options work just fine. if you use the pliers, set them so that you can pretty much squeeze them all the way shut, but they'll still grab the cup firmly...the only downside to this approach is that you'll most likely make marks in the fixed cup, if you care.

So long as you're confident that you're turning (or rather, applying force) in the correct direction, it sounds like your issue is to apply more force without chance of damaging the frame. Best option is, as you say above, to take the frame home and stick the fixed cup in the vise, and you can use the whole frame as a lever to try to twist the fixed up off. This is much better than hammering on anything.
It may be worth setting the frame on its side with fixed cup down, and putting some penetrating oil on the cup's interface with the threads of the BB (apply from inside the BB, reaching through from the non-drive-side) and let that sit overnight first.

braingel, HCW-4, as I implied.

timcupery, I'll degrease it and then re-apply the penetrating oil. I doubt it did much from the inside, though it did seem to penetrate from the outside.

Not sure if I'm stating the obvious here, but PB Blaster is the best penetrating oil I've found - beats WD40 by a long shot. I've had luck with the propane (or MAPP) torch on the cup itself (watch out for the frame), followed by PB Blaster. I think the heat pulls the oil in further. Let sit, then tap with a hammer to (hopefully) break oxidation. Then crank on it. Good luck!

If you have a suitable fixed cup wrench, there are commercial tools that will clamp it in place so you can apply a lot of force without the wrench slipping off.

I put together a home-made tool that does the same thing at negligable cost. It is a 5/8" bolt 4" long, a nut and two big washers. To use it:

1. Remove the adjustable cup, spindle and bearings. Then screw the adjustable cup back in several turns.

2. Put one washer on the bolt, feed it through the adjustable cup until it sticks out of the fixed cup, position the fixed cup wrench over the fixed cup, add a washer outside of the wrench and thread on the nut.

3. Align the wrench properly over the fix cup's flats and finger tighten the nut to hold the wrench in place.

4. Push, force, beat-on-with-mallet or do what ever in needed to break the fixed cup free.

5. Loosen the nut as the fixed cup unthreads to prevent binding. After a turn or so, the clamping bolt shouldn't be needed.

Tim's advice to use a bench vise as the fixed cup holder and the entire frame as the lever is excellent but not everyone has access to one or the space around their workbench to clear a horizontal bike frame.

I used a vise except that I put the BB tool in the vise, put the fixed cup on the tool and used the frame as leverage. It worked great! Just keep the cup firmly engaged with the tool.

Soak in good penetrating oil for 72hrs (the ones suggested above are good). Cheater bar on the wrench if necessary. Dead blow hammer on wrench or cheater bar if all else fails.

the things are great:

http://www.bostonindustrial.com/316deha.html

i know almost all modern bianchis have english threaded bottom brackets. and i hear (not a fact, just what i heard) from several people that they've been english threaded for at least the past decade. i'd snap a pic and send bianchi usa an email.

edit: i'm referring to bianchis sold in the usa, i have no idea what they're doing in italy.

Here's a link to Sheldon's illustrated page--this is what Hillrider is talking about:
http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html (scroll half way down)

This system works really well.

+1 on the Sheldon Brown tool. It just worked for me. Awesome bit of budget engineering.

Wow. Sheldon is the man. I've never seen that before, but it's awesome!

dirtyphotons, I was quite sure it is italian threaded. The 36X24 F" GIPIEMME SPECIAL ITALY was the hint.

I actually didn't bother degreasing it or re-applying penetrating oil or using ammonia. Just put the fixed cup straight into the vice (the fixed cup has paralell flats about 2.5mm wide that the vice gripped) and turned the frame. Worked like a charm. Pop she went, and I was able to unthread the rest by hand. It seems most of it was un-seized since I was able to do all the unthreading by hand once I got over the initial corrosion. I suspect the corrosion was only on the outermost part.

Thanks for the tips... I'm sure we all learned a thing or two about fixed-cup removal.

Sheldon's tool is different from what I was describing. My "tool" is just a bolt and washers used to clamp a fixed-cup wrench (like Park's HCW-4 or similar) to the fixed cup so it won't slip off while being torqued. Sheldon's is a fixed cup remover all by itself.

I just tried out Sheldon's tool (if you'll pardon the expression!) and it worked a charm. The fixed cup is now off the bike for the first time since 1982. This brings me to my next problem - what should I replace it with? The last time I cleaned out and reinstalled a bottom bracket spindle would have been about 1985. Things have moved on of course and it seems that a sealed cartridge is the way to go. Am I right in this assumption, and if so, is there anything else I should consider bearing in mind the age of the frame?

Thanks.

Sealed cartridge bottom brackets are certainly the way to go these days. The only inhibitor would be if you can't get the correct spindle length (or close enough) to work with your crank. You can easily find sealed cartridge bb's in Italian threading and in either JIS (Shimano, Sun Tour and most other Japanese cranks) or ISO (Campy and most European cranks) tapers too.

Just be sure the bb shell threads are clean and rust free before you install a new bb and use lots of grease, anti-seize or teflon tape on the threads to keep everything quiet and clean. And to prevent a recurrence of what you just went through. :)

Something important that Sheldon notes is that you shouldn't ever have to remove the fixed cup unless you're replacing the BB. Zinn agrees... part of the reason that it's in there so damn tight is so it doesn't come loose.

home-made tool worked amazingly AWESOME TO THE MAX!! insert misc. ebullience
 

Wow I had a viciously tight fixed cup which I couldn't begin to budge without the wrench flying all over the place. Frustration mounted quickly but before it could really hit its peak i looked on bikeforums.net and saw HillRider's suggestion for the home-made tool. It worked! Amazingly well. AWESOME!!! THANKS! :D :D :D

+1 on Hillrider's suggestion! I apologize for confusing it with Sheldon's idea, back in December. I think Hillrider's idea is actually even better, because although Sheldon's concept works very well, I have destroyed a fixed cup with it. That was a double-wall cup, with a recessed area for a seal--the pressure from Sheldon's removal tool crushed the double wall. Hillrider's idea would have allowed me to use an external wrench on the flats and get enough torque to remove the cup safely. He's right, there are commercially-made tools which do the same thing, but his invention works just as well.

That's not my "invention" but I guess I might be the first to put it on the Internet. This is a very old technique, probably older than I am...and I'm 62 (or 100 in metric!)

Sheldon "Didn't Invent The Nut And Bolt" Brown

brilliant
 

this is a brilliant idea, as i have tried sheldons tool to no avail. every time i have tried sheldons tool it slips against the washer and transffers no force to the cup.

I strongly agree with the above. As a sidelight, many years ago, I was unable to break out an old BB (aluminum frame) and finally took it to the local shop. He couldn't get it loose at the time and asked if he could keep the bike. I said "OK." When I picked it up, sans bracket, a couple of days later I asked him how he did it. He replied that his secret process was to fill the seat tube with Coke and let it sit. He claimed it worked every time...? Hunh. I dunno 'bout this one.

Figured I'd join the peanut gallery by reporting that Sheldon's tool worked great for me today. If you get the bolt/nut/washers at Lowe's like I did, you'll pay more like $6 than $1, but it was worth it to have everything reassembled in time to ride in the awesome summer weather Seattle is enjoying this week.