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canti to V brakes on older MTB

Old 01-10-07, 01:24 PM
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canti to V brakes on older MTB

Some questions about doing the conversion:

1- I read somewhere that this can be done if the brake posts are 80mm apart. Is there any give on this? I have just a shade more, maybe 85.

2- I cannot use the levers from the old set-up, right? Can they ever be used? Will they work at all?

3- Anything else I may not be anticipating?

I have a decent set of V's ready to bolt on. I have levers too, but I would like to use the old ones if possible.

many thanks,

jim
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Old 01-10-07, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jgedwa
Some questions about doing the conversion:

1- I read somewhere that this can be done if the brake posts are 80mm apart. Is there any give on this? I have just a shade more, maybe 85.

2- I cannot use the levers from the old set-up, right? Can they ever be used? Will they work at all?

3- Anything else I may not be anticipating?

I have a decent set of V's ready to bolt on. I have levers too, but I would like to use the old ones if possible.
The thing about post width is an oversimplification, but it is unlikely to be a problem in practice.

You will need to use the new levers, they pull twice as much cable as the traditional ones, and you need that.

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Old 01-10-07, 01:34 PM
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Rats. Guess I have to bite the bullet and use the different levers. Which means using another handle bar I have. Which means using another stem I have. Would it just be pointless to try and see?

Thanks for the info though.

Take care Sheldon, you are a treasure to us all.

jim
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Old 01-10-07, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jgedwa
Rats. Guess I have to bite the bullet and use the different levers. Which means using another handle bar I have. Which means using another stem I have. Would it just be pointless to try and see?
It would be dangerous to try and see.

This is explained at: https://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#brakelever

Here's a relevant excerpt:
Old short-pull lever, new direct pull ("V type") cantilever

The excessive mechanical advantage of this combination will make it difficult to modulate the brake, and it may be all too easy to lock up the wheel.
The lever feel will be very soft and mushy.

The lever will travel too far before engaging the brake, and it may bottom out against the handlebar. Thus, the brake may be super powerful at first, but as the brake shoes wear, the lever bumping up against the handlebar will prevent full application. This is likely to be a particular problem in wet conditions.
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Old 01-10-07, 03:26 PM
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The skinny of it: Front will work too good (endo city baby!) and the rear wont work at all (eat bark!)

Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
It would be dangerous to try and see.

This is explained at: https://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#brakelever

Here's a relevant excerpt:
Old short-pull lever, new direct pull ("V type") cantilever

The excessive mechanical advantage of this combination will make it difficult to modulate the brake, and it may be all too easy to lock up the wheel.
The lever feel will be very soft and mushy.

The lever will travel too far before engaging the brake, and it may bottom out against the handlebar. Thus, the brake may be super powerful at first, but as the brake shoes wear, the lever bumping up against the handlebar will prevent full application. This is likely to be a particular problem in wet conditions.
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Old 01-10-07, 06:35 PM
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These guys are both absolutely correct in what they say - you need to spring for a new set of levers to *assure* that your nice new Vs will work reliably. I moved from cantis on my '94 alu-framed MTB to Vs about 18 months ago - the difference ismore than worthwhile, especially if you ride in traffic and the only other thing I would say is this - if you've got Shimano V-brakes, dump the Shimano pads and move to something softer as soon as the first pair wear out, sooner if you ride off-road a lot (where you 'll see an increased level of abrasive grime between pad and rim). Common consensus seems to be that the Shimano pad compound is very aggressive, and those $5 pads will eat your $100 wheels quite quickly. The increase in braking force that comes with V-brakes comes with an increased level of friction at the rim...
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Old 01-10-07, 11:13 PM
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Other option is to use QBP Travel agents or a simular device if you want to use the Linear pull brakes with your old Canti Levers.
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Old 01-11-07, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mtnbiker4791
Other option is to use QBP Travel agents or a simular device if you want to use the Linear pull brakes with your old Canti Levers.
This makes sense with road levers, but is completely senseless on an MTB, for which v-brake levers are readily available at all price points.
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Old 01-11-07, 03:24 AM
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Why would you need new bars and stem? MTB handlebars have always been the same diameter. Just go out an buy some new levers. They are cheap. You can always sell the old cantis and levers on ebay to help defray the cost. Good luck

Tim
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Old 01-11-07, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jgedwa
3- Anything else I may not be anticipating?
1. What's your cable stop arrangement? Usually a cable stop is needed on the rear of the top tube to make linear pull brakes work. Many older mountain bikes don't have one there. Clamp-on cable stops are available - you need to measure your top tube diameter to get the right size. A work-around is to run cable housing all of the way from the lever and zip-tie it to the top tube.

2. How old is your bike? I had an old Raleigh Technium that had the holes for the return springs on the wrong side of the canty posts. Since the posts were welded dirrectly to the frame and fork, I never did figure out how to retrofit it with linear pull brakes.
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Old 01-11-07, 08:05 AM
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I made the upgrade from cantilever to V type Linear pull brakes I did change my levers but you can also get some QBP Travel agents so you can use your old levers but for what they cost I bought new levers.
Why do you need to buy new bars and stem to install Linear pull brakes?
By the way upgrading the brakes made a huge difference in my stopping power it would be a highly recommended upgrade.
You can see my upgrade in some of the photos on my Tandem Project page link if you like.
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Old 01-11-07, 08:32 AM
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Why would it entail a different stem and bar set up?

Long, complicated story, but suffice it to say that this is a Frankenbike. And so, nothing is quite so simple as it could be. It is an old (and French, no less) MTB that I have converted for urban use. Strange bar set up; fixed gear; odd brakes, etc. All put together from parts hanging around. $15 invested in it, and I would like to keep it that way.

But I will use the proper levers as per everyone's advice.

jim
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Old 01-11-07, 10:17 AM
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I borrowed a bike and went trail riding with my 8 year old, I knew something was wrong with the brakes but not sure what - but to quote my son
"cool flip dad"
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Old 01-12-07, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JTGraphics
I made the upgrade from cantilever to V type Linear pull brakes .

Originally Posted by JTGraphics
By the way upgrading the brakes made a huge difference in my stopping power it would be a highly recommended upgrade.
You can see my upgrade in some of the photos on my Tandem Project page link if you like.
Why do so many people think V Brakes are an improvement. I have canti's on my bikes and they stop so hard I can easily do an endo on any one of them. Cantilivers just aren't that hard to set up.

I liken a "V-Brake" upgrade to a threadless headset. The theory is that they are a big improvement over the version they replaced. In practice there isn't any difference. V-Brakes and threadless headsets are solutions to a problem that didn't exist. Hope this doesn't start a war.

Tim
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Old 01-12-07, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cs1
Why do so many people think V Brakes are an improvement. I have canti's on my bikes and they stop so hard I can easily do an endo on any one of them. Cantilivers just aren't that hard to set up.

I liken a "V-Brake" upgrade to a threadless headset. The theory is that they are a big improvement over the version they replaced. In practice there isn't any difference. V-Brakes and threadless headsets are solutions to a problem that didn't exist. Hope this doesn't start a war.

Tim
Have you ever used v-brakes? It's difficult to take comments like this very seriously. Let's extend it: I can stop hard enough with v-brakes to do an endo. Therefore, hydraulic disc brakes couldn't possibly offer any improvement in stopping power. Does that sound reasonable to you?

The difference is the hand force required at the lever and degree of modulation over braking force. In both of these categories, linear pull brakes are not just somewhat but entirely and utterly superior to traditional cantilever brakes. V-brakes give powerful braking action with a lighter touch than cantis, which in combination with the stiff brake arms and single cable make for superior control over the amount of braking force.

I can do an endo with centerpull caliper brakes, too. Does that make me foolish for wanting something with better performance? I don't think so. Those brakes require a painful amount of lever force if you want that level of stopping power, and that along with the spaghetti noodle caliper arms make it difficult to control the endo when you get there.

As for ease of set-up, modern cantis that take v-brake pads have eliminated this problem, but there is no doubt that smooth-post cantis are perhaps the second-most frustrating brake to adjust, ever. Only the Mafac centerpulls are worse. With practice it becomes a lot easier, yes, but any moron can correctly adjust v-brakes the first time out.

I've used both cantis and v-brakes pretty extensively, and there is really no reason to believe that they are equivalent. Don't get me wrong, cantilever brakes are perfectly good and plenty powerful, but v-brakes are better. There isn't any getting around that.
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Old 01-12-07, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cs1
...The theory is that they are a big improvement over the version they replaced. In practice there isn't any difference. V-Brakes and threadless headsets are solutions to a problem that didn't exist. Hope this doesn't start a war.

Tim
Dude,
v-brakes and threadless headset are not solutions, they are improvements. They just work better than their older counterparts.

Ricardo
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Old 01-13-07, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by grolby
Have you ever used v-brakes? It's difficult to take comments like this very seriously.
Yes, I have riden bikes with V-Brakes. They work well. They really don't work any better than canitlevers IMO. The biggest advantage of V-Brakes is in setup. It is easier for the average rider to dial in V-Brakes. Canti's are more time consuming to setup properly. That is why most people complain about canti's, they aren't setup correctly. A properly tuned cantilever brake is all the braking power the average rider needs. Racing or really wet weather might require a disc brake.

Tim
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Old 01-13-07, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cs1
The biggest advantage of V-Brakes is in setup. Canti's are more time consuming to setup properly.
Masterfully understated!
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Old 01-13-07, 09:11 AM
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Just for fun....and to be educated by those who have already traveled where I am about to travel....

Grolby wrote "...but there is no doubt that smooth-post cantis are perhaps the second-most frustrating brake to adjust, ever. " What is a smoot post vs the "alternative"? I took some mid '80s Shimano canti's off my project frame, has three little holes for spring inside...are there other types? I was going to replace them with a nice set of Avid Shortys.....not sure why....maybe a waste of money...just look better.

Then I started to consider V brakes....since most of the riding will be commuting....they will stop you in a a hurry will get water off faster than Canti's....

But they have GOT TO weigh much more. Brakes are my least concern, drive train and some awesome wheels are where I am going to focus my $$$. I just need something that works when needed so I am almost inclined to polish up the Shimano's and leave the brakes stock.

Or, the more I think about it, take the nice 'looking' canti's off my Burley Duet and upgrade to V-pulls there....where I do need more braking power...and put those canti's on my commuter.

Experts? Are there different post types I need to learn about before I tear things appart? Won't V-pulls add weight over Canti's? Other things I should know? Cable stops are key.

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Old 01-13-07, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cs1
Yes, I have riden bikes with V-Brakes. They work well. They really don't work any better than canitlevers IMO. The biggest advantage of V-Brakes is in setup. It is easier for the average rider to dial in V-Brakes. Canti's are more time consuming to setup properly. That is why most people complain about canti's, they aren't setup correctly. A properly tuned cantilever brake is all the braking power the average rider needs.
"Properly set up" is a biggie. If you look at a random selection of bikes with traditional cantilevers, I doubt that 10% of them _are_ properly set up.

See: https://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-adjustment

"V-type" brakes also solve cable routing issues for a number of frame designs. In particular, bikes with rear suspension can often be challenging/impossible for traditional cantis. Many recumbent designs also have issues with them, issues that are very neatly solved by V-type brakes.

I personally like the elegant simplicity of the "V type" brake design better than the more complicated traditional center-pull cantilever.

The only problem I see with "V type" brakes is that they do require special brake levers that pull more cable. These are widely available for straight bars, but none of the options for drop bars is much good.

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Old 01-14-07, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
"Properly set up" is a biggie. If you look at a random selection of bikes with traditional cantilevers, I doubt that 10% of them _are_ properly set up.

See: https://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-adjustment

"V-type" brakes also solve cable routing issues for a number of frame designs. In particular, bikes with rear suspension can often be challenging/impossible for traditional cantis. Many recumbent designs also have issues with them, issues that are very neatly solved by V-type brakes.

I personally like the elegant simplicity of the "V type" brake design better than the more complicated traditional center-pull cantilever.

The only problem I see with "V type" brakes is that they do require special brake levers that pull more cable. These are widely available for straight bars, but none of the options for drop bars is much good.

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I like your answer, it's well thought out and explained. I like your binary joke better though.

Tim
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Old 01-14-07, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
The only problem I see with "V type" brakes is that they do require special brake levers that pull more cable. These are widely available for straight bars, but none of the options for drop bars is much good.
Hmm, what's wrong with the Dia-Compe 287-V levers? I know you've used them.

I have them on my bike, and haven't had a problem with them over the 3000 miles I've used them.
Well, except for the tiny locking screw, which screws into soft aluminium. Naturally, I messed it up and destroyed the outer 1-2 threads on one of them. I can still screw it in, but it takes more fiddling and time. Once in, it's solid, though.

A better solution would be to make regular V levers with a smarter mounting system, so they can be mounted on drop bars as well. But for some reason, the manufacturers have decided to not allow anyone to do that. I've no idea why they're so stupid (they'd sell more, for almost no extra effort), but I know I can't do anything about it...
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Old 01-14-07, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AD-SLE
Just for fun....and to be educated by those who have already traveled where I am about to travel....

Grolby wrote "...but there is no doubt that smooth-post cantis are perhaps the second-most frustrating brake to adjust, ever. " What is a smoot post vs the "alternative"? I took some mid '80s Shimano canti's off my project frame, has three little holes for spring inside...are there other types? I was going to replace them with a nice set of Avid Shortys.....not sure why....maybe a waste of money...just look better.

Then I started to consider V brakes....since most of the riding will be commuting....they will stop you in a a hurry will get water off faster than Canti's....

But they have GOT TO weigh much more. Brakes are my least concern, drive train and some awesome wheels are where I am going to focus my $$$. I just need something that works when needed so I am almost inclined to polish up the Shimano's and leave the brakes stock.

Or, the more I think about it, take the nice 'looking' canti's off my Burley Duet and upgrade to V-pulls there....where I do need more braking power...and put those canti's on my commuter.

Experts? Are there different post types I need to learn about before I tear things appart? Won't V-pulls add weight over Canti's? Other things I should know? Cable stops are key.
"Smooth post" refers to the mounting hardware for brake pads. Traditionally, cantilever pads simply had, well, smooth posts coming out of the back of the pads, sometimes with horizontal grooves in them. All of the mounting hardware is on the brake itself. This kind of brake mount is very aggravating to adjust. Most modern cantilever brakes of quality now use the same pads and mounting hardware as V-brakes, with allen bolts and helical washers. It allows for both easier and finer control over set-up. It's still trickier to set the cantilevers up properly, but it's a hell of a lot easier than it used to be.

(By the way, the MOST difficult to adjust brake I've ever used was an old MAFAC centerpull, which also used smooth post hardware - but has even less room to maneuver and fewer degrees of freedom than a cantilever brake.)

I'm not sure how V-brakes could possibly weigh much more than traditional cantis. The difference is entirely negligible. V's can quite possibly be made to weigh less, due to the simplicity of the design. Certainly, modern v-brakes are lighter than the cantis of yesteryear.

CdCf - The problem with the 287-V levers is high cable friction, mostly. I've got mine pretty well dialed-in, now, but for the first 400 miles or so they were problematic. They're very particular about cable routing, in my experience. I also just don't think that they're particularly nice levers. The hoods are kind of narrow and hard, and there's the issue you mentioned with the mounting screw. I've half a mind to eventually replace my whole braking system with a nice pair of modern cantilevers and Cane Creek SCR-5 levers, or the Tektro equivalent. It's also rather disappointing not to be able to use cross levers with them, though that's not really the fault of the levers.
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Old 01-14-07, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby
CdCf - The problem with the 287-V levers is high cable friction, mostly. I've got mine pretty well dialed-in, now, but for the first 400 miles or so they were problematic. They're very particular about cable routing, in my experience. I also just don't think that they're particularly nice levers. The hoods are kind of narrow and hard, and there's the issue you mentioned with the mounting screw.
I just put them together and off I went. No problems at all. I can't say if it's luck on my part, though... It was only when I had to replace a frayed cable that I messed up the threads.

The hoods? Well, I never use them, except to hang my helmet on when I'm off the bike for a while. So that's not an issue for me.

Nice? Hmm, they look clean and sleek, and I can't really say that their either good or bad. I don't buy bike components primarily based on what they look like. Well, not unless there's a costless choice between silver and black, in which case I go with silver.
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Old 01-14-07, 02:36 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by CdCf
Hmm, what's wrong with the Dia-Compe 287-V levers? I know you've used them.
The 287V has more internal cable friction than better quality "aero" levers such as Campagnolo, Shimano and Tektro/Cane Creek.

This can be helped by unconventional cable routing, as I did on my Thorn Raven, where I deliberately did not run the cables under the tape. If you go under the tape, there's a nasty bend as the cable exits the internal noodle.

The 287V pulls more cable than any other drop-bar lever, just barely enough to be acceptable for "V-type" brakes.

Originally Posted by CdCf
A better solution would be to make regular V levers with a smarter mounting system, so they can be mounted on drop bars as well. But for some reason, the manufacturers have decided to not allow anyone to do that. I've no idea why they're so stupid (they'd sell more, for almost no extra effort), but I know I can't do anything about it...
It's not that the manufacturers are "stupid." It is not so easy to make a long-pull lever for drop bars.

First of all, standard "V-type" brake levers, like other levers made for straight bars, bend away from the handlebar to provide good clearance. Levers for drop bars need to bend toward the bars or you wouldn't be able to reach the bottom of the lever with your fingers from the drop position.

Levers for drop bars need to be operable from the hoods as well as the drops, but "V type" brakes require a long pull lever.

The way you make a long pull lever is by having a longer distance from the lever pivot to the cable attachment. This requires a physically larger body. Since the market demands "aero" type cable routing, where the cable runs above the pivot, you either need to move the cable up or the pivot down.

The 287V moves the cable up as far as is possible. Moving the pivot down would cause the lever to be difficult/impossible to operate from the hoods.

Sheldon "Not As Easy As You Might Imagine" Brown
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