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Lacing 40 hole hub into 36 hole rim

Old 05-08-07, 01:33 AM
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Lacing 40 hole hub into 36 hole rim

So, I'm about to lace a 40 hole Brampton track hub into a 36 hole Araya 630mm rim. I've read Damon Rinard's page on Sheldonbrown.com and worked out my spoke length (2.75 cross). Now I've just got to figure out which four holes to leave without spokes......

Symmetry and tidiness suggest 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock on one flange, with 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock on the other. But is it that simple? Am I throwing out some sort of torque balance? Should it be 12 and 3 on one flange and 6 and 9 on the other? Or (roughly) 12 and 6 on both flanges? Or some other combination? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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Old 05-08-07, 08:05 AM
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It sounds to me like you are assuming this to be simpler than it is. Rinard's case was a 24 spoke wheel on a 36 hole hub which works out to be simple (at least on one flange) with just an empty hole between each pair of spokes. I have built a 32 spoke wheel on a 40 hole hub, with empty holes between groups of 4 spokes, still relatively symmetrical, but requires 2 different spoke lengths. You are talking about 36 spokes on a 40 hole hub which with 9 spokes between the empty holes, does not work out so neatly. Without figuring it out in detail, I think you will have at least 5 different cross numbers and spoke lengths (or is it 10?). Not to say it isn't doable.
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Old 05-08-07, 05:11 PM
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Hmmm, yes I see your point. And yes, I had assumed it to be simple-ish. My assumption was that while there would be many different spoke lengths, they would all be fractions of a millimetre, perhaps with an overall length difference of 1-2mm, maybe even less than 1mm. Perhaps I am incorrect here. Rinard certainly seems to suggest he used one length and there must surely be a slight discrepency in lengths with a 24/36 as well, though not as large.

Note that on Rinard's wheel, the other side was radial laced and he suggests calculating the spoke length as normal, while there would be a slight difference due to offset holes from the odd number of holes in hub and rim. The difference in that case is apparently small enough that he didn't bother calculating a precise length. I kinda assumed the same thing. I figured that if any ended up being too short or long, I would just remedy that with a file or a new spoke if needed. However, with no experience doing this myself, it's all conjecture right now.

By the way, not that it makes much difference but Rinard does does groups of 3-1-3-1
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Old 05-09-07, 08:12 AM
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Out of curiosity I have attempted to work this out by drawing a diagram and counting the degrees of offset of each spoke. If you built symmetrically on one flange you would need 18 spokes of 9 different lengths with offsets of 52 to 68 degrees in 2 degree increments or cross numbers from 2.6 to 3.4 in 0.1 increments, assuming a 36 spoke 3-cross pattern. But you also have to consider the relationship to the other flange, which for 36 spokes should be offset by 10 degrees, but with the 40 hole hub is actually offset by only 9 degrees, so to make both flange patterns the same you need to "twist" the pattern by 1/2 a degree, thereby ending up with 18 spokes of *18* different lengths on each flange, offsets of 51.5 to 68.5 degrees in 1 degree increments or cross numbers of 2.575 to 3.425 in .05 increments. This introduces some torque across the barrel of the hub, but with only 1/2 a degree of twist I'd guess it doesn't have any detrimental effect. My 32/40 wheel has 1 1/8 degrees of twist but is built on a Sturmey Archer hub which has a relatively large diameter to resist the torque.

Rinard uses the radial spoking on his non-drive side flange to avoid having to put that "twist" into his wheel, which with 24 spokes on the 36 hole hub would be 2 1/2 degrees. All the spokes in his drive side pattern are the same length, because with only 2 spokes between empty holes, every spoke has the exact same relationship to the pattern of empty holes, very different from your pattern with 9 spokes between empty holes.

I don't know the exact data for your hub and rim, but as an estimate your spoke lengths would be something like 290mm to 299mm by approximately 1/2mm increments (according to Spocalc using a rim ERD of 620, hub flange diameter of 69 and hub flange offset of 27).

Bottom line: This was somewhat interesting to figure out, but I don't think I'd go to this much bother to actually build a wheel. Unless you have some compelling reason to use this particular rim with this particular hub?

To answer your original question, I think I'd think I'd put the empty holes adjacent to the ones on the opposite flange, just to somewhat simplify the assembly of the wheel.

Last edited by cyqlist; 05-09-07 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 05-09-07, 08:18 AM
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Might be easer to find a 40 hole rim.Araya made 40 hole tandem rims.also Sun.
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Old 05-09-07, 09:58 AM
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That would be my preference. But even a 32 hole rim would be much simpler to build on the 40 hole hub than a 36 hole rim. I built my SA wheel with 40 hole hub and 32 hole rim because I already had the rim and it matched my front rim, and because it was an interesting project. That was close to 10 years ago and it's held up fine.
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Old 05-09-07, 04:48 PM
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Well, I WAS certainly assuming it to be simpler than it is. Thankyou for your help. I hadn't realised there would be more mathematics involved than following Rinard's steps for 36/24 - how foolish of me. My compelling reason is similar to yours: "I already had the rim and it matched my front rim, and because it was an interesting project". One part of me is now saying: "ditch the project, find a different rim or hub", but the other part is saying "this project just got even more interesting......".... I think I might draw some diagrams and bust out my trigonometry "skills" and see how it works and what I come up with. Then, maybe....

Again, many thanks!!
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Old 11-07-16, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Wotan
Well, I WAS certainly assuming it to be simpler than it is. Thankyou for your help. I hadn't realised there would be more mathematics involved than following Rinard's steps for 36/24 - how foolish of me. My compelling reason is similar to yours: "I already had the rim and it matched my front rim, and because it was an interesting project". One part of me is now saying: "ditch the project, find a different rim or hub", but the other part is saying "this project just got even more interesting......".... I think I might draw some diagrams and bust out my trigonometry "skills" and see how it works and what I come up with. Then, maybe....

Again, many thanks!!



how did your 40 hub 36 rim project work out.....I have a similar issue trying to find enough single speed cruiser hubs here in the desert...I have a 40 hole hub from a 29" wheel and have a plethoria of 26' 36 hole rims....was curious how your build resulted...and how you did your offset...ie...where you put the extra holes clock postion wise?
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Old 11-07-16, 07:04 AM
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I bought a used Cannondale Bugger trailer many years ago from a buddy who had a shop, and he had replaced the 20" rims with 27s. I've forgotten the details but he used 36 hole rims and I believe the hubs were 24 hole. Weird looking rig but it worked. Sorry I don't have more info to share.
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Old 11-07-16, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by frameteam2003
Might be easer to find a 40 hole rim.Araya made 40 hole tandem rims.also Sun.
Yup, PM me if you are interested. I have some that I'll never use.
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Old 11-07-16, 07:55 AM
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Why not just use a 40 hole rim? They're not hard to find.
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Old 11-07-16, 11:20 AM
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40 divided by 36 to not give an even number [1.111111111...]
using 36 holes of 40 makes a bigger math challenge, since you will need several length's of spokes

I have a 40 hole rear wheel [36 front] .. and a 40 hole front wheel [48 rear ] I've built 2 sets of those over the years.

so yes there are 40 hole rims.

The Lore of the garage frame building shop of Mr Bontrager. had him dumpster-diving at Specialized Main offices.
Cut out a section of those 700c MA 40s and created the super light 559 mtb race rim..





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Old 11-07-16, 02:26 PM
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Another option is to make an adapter hub flange. Cut a ring out of sheet metal, with a set of holes around the inner diameter that fits the current drilling of the hub. And another set of holes around the outer diameter to match the drilling that you want. Attach to hub with self-tapping screws and lace normally.
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Old 11-08-16, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
Yup, PM me if you are interested. I have some that I'll never use.
Sorry to say, RG, but nine years after considering that as a solution... maybe the interest has waned, and the OP has moved on from this project.

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Old 11-08-16, 06:32 PM
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If you decide to go through with this fiasco, please, PLEASE post pics....
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