desertdork

maybe I'm losing my mind...

I received my A. Homer Hilsen frame from a Rivendell dealer this week. The Phil bottom bracket had already been installed, as is standard with this dealer. As I assembled the drivetrain, I noticed the chainline needed to be moved slightly. No big deal with a Phil, right?

Well, this is where the fun became perplexing. Something told me to examine the exposed threads on the mounting rings before picking up the tools. That's odd, the right (drive side) ring appears to have right-hand threads. So I check the threads on the left (non-drive) ring, and it appears to have left-hand threads. I slip the Phil BB tools onto the rings and slightly, but firmly, turn the left mounting ring clockwise to see if it does indeed loosen. It does. I then turn the right ring counterclockwise, and it loosens as well. I remove the rings and BB and clean the threads. The BB cartridge itself was installed with the correct orientation, with "P" on the non-drive side and "L" on the drive side. The left mounting ring was firmly pressed on to the cartridge. The tech doc at philwood.com states:

"The left-hand threaded mounting ring is indicated by a RED surface on its counter-bored side."

Well, this RED coded mounting ring is the ring that is pressed onto the non-drive side of my cartridge, but would it not be correctly mounted on the drive side of a properly threaded British BB? So it looks like my Homer has a BB shell that is unique...not British, Italian, French, Swiss or other.

Being Saturday, I can't speak to the dealer that sold me the frame or to a mechanic at Rivendell. I did call Riv and speak to someone that admitted that the frame was out of spec according to my description. He also stated that it would be fine as is, but I could return it since I "seemed to be troubled about it." His view was that it was no different than Italian threading. Apparently, he didn't understand that the nondrive side is left-hand threaded, which means it is not only not the same as Italian (right?), but it's exactly opposite of British.

Should I feel troubled about this (as I do)? Has anyone here had a similar experience? If it's truly a bad idea to ride this frame with this threading, I can send it to Walnut Creek and wait however long it takes to get a replacement. This is my first experience with a Phil BB, and I don't know that I can expect the loctite to keep the rings in place with the current threading.

I also think that, if it is indeed defective, it would have been nice if the dealer might have contacted me after discovering this fault during the BB installation. We did communicate via phone & email, and I wasn't exactly hard to reach.

I hope to hear from any of you much-smarter-than-me mechanics. Thank you.

HillRider

Sounds like the manufacturer reversed the taps when they threaded the bb shell. I'd contact Rivendell about this immediately.

A right hand threaded drive-side cup is likely to loosen unless torqued VERY tight which is why Italian threading has gone out of style. Have them make the frame right.

krome

Sounds like a manufacturing defect, like HillRider mentioned.

What is worse, is now you have the worst combination of threadings as they now both would be prone to loosening. The term is mechanical precession. Italian threading is right hand thread on both sides. The drive side would tend to loosen in use, whereas the left side will get tighter in use, this is why all other BB threading systems have a left hand thread on the drive side (edit: wrong, apparently French BBs are also right hand thread, both sides).

It isn't horrible, as it can probably be overcome with sufficient installation torque, or some sort of thread locking compound, but on a bike that expensive, it is a pretty severe gaffe. The fact that it was assembled and shipped with that condition is sloppy. It is a severe "oops". It isn't dangerous, but it can lead to the BB loosening with use.

I'm not a professional bike mechanic, but I've done my own bottom bracket work.

Edit: On this page, at the bottom:

https://www.momentumplanet.com/ecstat...dal-precession

There is some information from Jobst Brandt where he has indicated that the bottom bracket is not as likely than the pedals to experience enough flexing to precess, plus some of the forces are canceled out by the chain. The article basically says that precession isn't much of a factor at the bottom bracket. I do respect Mr. Brandt's opinion on the subject. The last sentence reads:
However, in your case, it appears that both cups are now threaded in the "wrong" direction.

operator

You shouldn't have to deal with this on a new frame. Italian bb's are fine as long as they are torqued properly, which most people don't.

Ex Pres 

I'm not searching for the thread, but this happened to another BF member not long ago. Make 'em make it right.

well biked

Assuming you've correctly diagnosed it, I gotta say I would be very troubled by such a ridiculous situation, particularly with such an expensive frame. There's no way someone along the line didn't realize it, and to send it to you with the bottom bracket installed like that (leaving it to you to discover it) is totally uncaccceptable. And then, from the way you describe it, for the Rivendell employee to make light of it, I gotta say it would make me have serious second thoughts about doing business with them. I think I'd send it back, get a refund, look for another nice frame that would fit my needs from another company, and let Rivendell sell this one on their silly "homeless frames" section. Sorry, but what they've done with this one is just unacceptable. I love steel frames, particularly lugged steel, but if I'm going to pay the kind of money an A. Homer Hilsen costs, it needs to be exacty right.

And I agree with the sentiment that Italian threading is fine as long as it's torqued correctly, but that's beside the point in this case.

I had my Italian threaded '90's Pinarello bb faced the other day by a mechanic who works on a lot of Italian frames, and he said that pretty much all made-in-Italy frames are still Italian threaded. And that would include some very nice bikes to say the least-

avmanansala

You paid for a frame that you expect to have the threads correctly tapped; they aren't exchange the frame for a correct one...I think that the problem threads will bother you to no end...it would bother me.

HillRider

+1 Absolutely Rivendell should make it right and there should be no argument from them or shipping charges to you. It isn't as if Rivendell is running a bargain shop either. Their frames command a real premium and the very least you can expect is to have it made right.

The "customer service" guy you spoke to need more training.

I_bRAD

If the threads are not to any convention, then where did the BB come from?

Sturmcrow

Likely they just switched the cups on it. Phil BB's are different from Shimano.

desertdork

Yes, this appears to be the case. The drive side (Red coded) mounting ring was pressed onto the non-drive side of the bb cartridge during the installation.

Will I have any issues with changing the orientation (i.e., "Phil" would read upside-down when viewed from above) of this bb when reinstalling it on a correctly threaded frame? As mentioned, the one mounting ring is now pressed onto the cartridge, thus forbidding its 'normal' orientation.

I may have to ask this in a new thread...I think this will get overlooked here.

HillRider

I don't know if the Phil mounting rings can be switched at will but that brings up another reason to get Rivendell to correct the situation. A Phil bb is a long term item but it's not forever. If, at some point, you want to use another make or type, the bb must be threaded properly to let you do it.

If it's a problem with the current Phil bb, insist Rivendell replace the needed parts too.

desertdork

That's what I was afraid of.

I don't think the Riv employee took the non-drive side into consideration during our brief discussion. That's why I wasn't feeling too comfortable with his opinion that it would be fine.

desertdork

That's my feeling, too.

From what I was told, true or untrue, the framebuilder does not check the threading. If that's the case, they probably should. Regardless, this one didn't get checked.

Yes, the defective frame is a manufacturing fault. Maybe it was built on a Friday PM

As it stands, I'm really irritated that the dealer's mechanic didn't bring this to my attention. He certainly saw the problem (he installed the bb)...and ultimately had the opportunity to save my frustration...but must have felt I would be fine with it. That's just not right.

While the Rivendell employee may have struggled with his ability to fully understand my issue, I don't think it would be fair to take a single, brief discussion with one person as representative of a company's overall attitude toward its customers. All of the others there whom I have spoken to previously have been most pleasant and helpful. And that's not to say that he wasn't trying to be helpful, though in a less polished manner. Had there been a mechanic available, I would have expected to have had a smoother conversation; but that's my problem for calling on the weekend. This individual was admittedly not a mechanic, but I didn't think my question was that technical. In all fairness, he did assure me that he'd never heard of this defect on one of their frames and that I could send it back to them.

I don't want to bash Rivendell, as that's not my point of posting this here. A defect is something that any manufacturer can find itself dealing with at any time. And I don't think the this defect is reflective of the overall quality of a Rivendell product. The threading appeared wrong, so I posted my question here tap your knowledge and seek your advice.

I can see where someone might indeed do this; there is nothing inherently wrong with this position. But I must believe that mfg defects do occasionally occur, no matter how unpalatable it may be to be on the receiving end. Just like any manufacturer, I think Rivendell deserves to have the opportunity to make this right. And I have no reason to doubt that Grant (or those in charge) will make that happen. Just like other small bicycle mfrs, Rivendell is competing in a sea of giants. They've done well in their ability to offer something "a bit different" or "more useful." Besides, the Hilsen is a versatile bike that should suit my needs quite well.

operator

I think this thread is at the end of it's usefulness. Let us know what happens.

desertdork

Thank you HillRider & all...

As one reply stated, I'm afraid this problem would always bug me if I chose to keep the frame and deal with it. I didn't get a discounted product, and I'm certain the mfr wants all customers pleased with their purchase. So it's packed and ready to do a little traveling this week...after I make a couple of telephone calls in the morning.

Again, thanks very much. If anyone else want to chime in on my question (4 posts up) about installing the same bottom bracket in a defect-free frame, I'd like to hear from you.

well biked

desertdork, I wish you the best of luck with the bike. There's certainly nothing wrong with your wanting to give Rivendell the chance to make it right, either. I have to admit I wasn't in the best of moods when I posted above. I do respect GP and the fact that he makes a living at something he's passionate about. FWIW, regardless of what Rivendell knew or didn't know when they shipped the frame, I would definitely have a word with the shop who installed the bb in your new, expensive, frame. They should have informed you immediately that the threading wasn't right-