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Campagnolo Ultra Torque Problem Uncovered?

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Campagnolo Ultra Torque Problem Uncovered?

Old 09-23-08, 08:33 AM
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RogueMechanic@g
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Campagnolo Ultra Torque Problem Uncovered?

Hello All,

I hope that this message finds everyone well.
To all who have a Campy Ultra Torque crankset/bottom bracket system, you might find this interesting...

http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/rog...nolo-ul-1.html

Let me know what you think and if you have any questions.

Thanks!

John

www.roguemechanic.com

Last edited by RogueMechanic@g; 09-23-08 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Broken link
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Old 09-23-08, 08:51 AM
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I am digesting all of this. I have developed a clunking in the bb area (at least I think that's where it is) when my bike is on the trainer and I am pedaling very hard (well for me anyway). I replaced the cups when I did my 3000 mile maintenance and did notice that the original wavy washer (I replaced it and the cups at that time) has the same shiny spots as the one you picture. My bb is a 2002 Merlin Extralight - which leads me to believe that it came properly faced (which some have postulated may cause problems).

I do not have a precise measurement of my bb width and its not in the literature that came with the bike.

If you are correct, then I guess everyone would have to get a precise bb measurement, secure the proper spacers from somewhere and adjust accordingly.

Finally, what would be the consequences of adding a second wavy washer?

edit - I just did the same procedure you did in your first video and I also have the same movement on the (at least) the non drive side.

I'm not an engineer - what are the real world consequences of this movement (other than the noise).
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Old 09-23-08, 08:52 AM
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Link doesn't work for me.
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Old 09-23-08, 09:19 AM
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try his link.

http://www.roguemechanic.com/
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Old 09-23-08, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by LWaB View Post
Link doesn't work for me.
It didn't for me either. Click on the link after his signature and scroll down.
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Old 09-23-08, 09:27 AM
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I posted the other day about using locktite and was blasted about it
I understand that I am new but pardon my stupid but to show some of our guru's
the info "The cups are supposed to be installed free of grease, with Loctite 222, hand tight. Install the fixing bolt, torque to spec, wait 24hrs (for the Loctite to cure), then off you go...
Ok.. "

hope you are not our LBS mech
I guess I will go back to the turnip truck now
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Old 09-23-08, 10:47 AM
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Sorry - I don't think I saw that post. I have done both methods of installing the Campy bb cups. I first did it without loctitie (222 not available locally without special order and I wanted to ride). When I put on new bb cups I used the loctitie 222. Worked just as well as usng the torquing method and was easier to boot.
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Old 09-23-08, 11:11 AM
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I will have to do your test on my bike when i get home. I just built mine with a Campy Veloce UT set and I get that click once every pedal stroke, and now that i think of it, it is when the non drive side is around 6 oclock.

I'm wondering precisely what RockyMtnMerlin is, will this cause damage?
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Old 09-23-08, 11:31 AM
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http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=468523
was not aimed at you!! it is for HF
did not mean to imply that you were the one that
made the statement
glad that you are having success with your problem
I guess when you have spent as much time as I have with mechanical applications you feel that your input has some value
but I am new and should have kept my mouth shut
there is a lot of things that I need to learn about bikes
and the new products out there
sorry
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Old 09-23-08, 11:56 AM
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Ah, I see that now, Sorry for the confusion!
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Old 09-23-08, 12:07 PM
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Double checked. FWIW the movement only happens on my non-drive side.
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Old 09-23-08, 08:58 PM
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Hello All,
Sorry for the bad link. I think I fixed it.

Below are my rapid fire answers to the above posts...

The movement can only be initialized from the non-drive side. The wave washer is located between the cup and the bearing. There isn't a wave washer on the drive side... therefore nothing to compress.

I can only speculate the long-term implications of this movement... At this point it's only been noise.

Regarding the loctite, this is what was prescribed in the Campy UT installation manual. At this point I do not totally embrace the practice...

I hope that this helps!

Thanks!
John
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Old 09-23-08, 09:29 PM
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Thanks to Tristan for pointing out this thread in Weight Weenies http://weightweenies.starbike.com/fo...torque&start=0
Adds to the discussion. In his answer to my post on WW Tristan said,
"I've yet to hear of anyone actually notice this lateral movement while riding, however I'm not a fan of the design because of this movement.

Generally what occurs is the bearing moves laterally in the cup and polishes the inside of the cup. At some point this will result in the cup not correctly supporting the bearing but I've yet to see this. Generally all that happens is a creaking noise from grit / grim which has made it's way into the cup."

So still not entirely sure if I should try to correct this.

I'll add one more note - FWIW - this clunking seems to have arisen when I put on my second set of cups. The first set was torqued on and the second set hand tightened only but with the loctite 222.
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Old 09-23-08, 10:35 PM
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I did this test on mine (albet it only has about 30 miles on it) and found it to be fine and not have this problem.

I discovered my "click" was my front derailer just about toughing the crank arm on the pedal stroke. Yes I am an idiot.
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Old 09-24-08, 01:00 AM
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In the past I've tried a couple of things to solve this. You need to be very careful if you try either of these methods as you don't want to over-space and either damage the bearings or worse cause the hirth joint to not correctly engage (there is a serious injury risk here.)

The downside of both of these methods is a reduced amount of thread in the frame. For some setups this will be OK as there will still be plenty of thread insertion, in other case where the BB shell is quite narrow this might cause some problems. This is a hack: It should be tackled by someone experienced and who can put some thought into what they're doing to spot any potential problems along the way. The factory setup works just fine in 99% of cases so don't jump into these solutions if you're not having problems that you're sure are related to the wave washer. In most cases removing the cups from the frame, cleaning and greasing everything and re-installing is enough to get rid of any noises.

1) Fitting spacers between the frame and NDS cup. This works well. I've got access to a lathe so turning up spacers in 0.1mm increments was possible for me to do. Without a lathe you'd either have to cut shimstock or botch it somehow.

Basically install the driveside BB cup to torque but only finger-tighten the NDS cup. Fit the cranks as per usual except with the wave washer removed (and you won't need the driveside c-clip either.) Now unwind the NDS cup by hand until it's snugly sitting outboard against the bearing. Measure the gap between the BB cup and frame. Lets say it's 2.0mm.

Machine some spacers starting at 1.7mm and moving upwards in as many increments as you can be bothered making, lets say 0.1mm jumps. Fit the 1.7mm spacer and check for lateral movement, if it exists (and it should) then fit the 1.8mm and re-test. Keep going upwards until the lateral movement disappears then go back down to where you had a small amount of movement. This is important as you want the hirth to fully close.

Potential downside here is that the NDS bearing isn't being supported on it's face, only on its OD. I don't think this really matters though because the amount of movement is small (less than 0.1mm) and this shouldn't be too much worse than the wave washer supporting the faces.

2) Old Skool locking ring. Remember cup and cone bottom brackets? How they had a fixed cup on the DS and a floating cup on the NDS with a lockring? Well you need to find one of those lockrings that is nice and thin (not easy.)

Install the DS cup to spec, place the lockring behind the NDS cup and install in the frame. Install cranks without wave washer again (you won't need the driveside c-clip either), and torque the hirth. Now check for lateral movement. Have some? Good. Don't have any? Bad...find a narrower lockring.

Unscrew the NDS cup by hand until snug against the bearing. Now tighten the lockring against the frame as per cup and cone bottom bracket. Ride bike with smile.
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Old 09-25-08, 09:17 AM
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???

Your test for play and the attempted solution don't make sense. There is a large gap between the NDS bearing and cup, filled by the wavy washer. If the wavy washer is working, The DS bearing is held tightly against the inner face of the DS cup and there is never any freeplay in this system. This can be tested by pressing lightly on both sides of the crank, at the center to feel for freeplay along the spindle axis. There should be none, if the wavy washer is producing it's normal 25-50 pounds of preload force on the bearings. With enough force, you can always produce movement, but leveraging the ends of the crank arms is not a check for axial play. Installing shims (behind the left side cup) should only be done if the width of the BB shell is under 67.2mm, or perhaps to bring the width up to nominal, if it's near the low limit. Most likely, the bearings are shot, and/or the cups are worn and need replacing.


All outboard crank bearings have one slip fit and one pressed fit. Campy press fits the bearings on the spindle and slip fits the bearings into the cup. If there is wear from bearing movement, it will wear the cup, not the spindle. Better to wear out a cheap cup than ruin a crank.
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Old 02-07-10, 10:58 AM
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Campy UT clicking--one mechanic's experience

I've been experiencing clicking noises from my Campy Centaur UT crank since day 1, and read with interest the posts about similar or identical problems, at:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/fo...23321&start=45
where I found Tristan's remarks especially useful, and of course at
http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/rog...nolo-ul-1.html
where the problem was evidently first uncovered.
As the threads seem to fade out in late 2008, I wonder if a general fix has been found, or whether, like me, many of the posters have moved on to non-UT
cranks. Here's what I found, while trying to apply 40+ years of tuning Italian motorcycles and German cars:
The subject bike is an '06 Waterford with Campy Centaur crank and Chorus compact gruppo. After the original chainring gears wore out (unevenly, at 2500
miles), I couldn't get from Campy the replacement chainrings and so had the LBS install the Centaur UT crank. Immediately commenced the periodic
clicking, once each crank rotation, though intermittent and dependent on grade. Seemed to take a 10%+ grade to bring it on (I weigh 170lb.). The LBS sent
the crank back to Campy, which said they found contamination in the bearing, and no other problems (not true: approx. 20 miles ridden on dry asphalt only).
Reinstalled the crank: click still there. Not a shining moment for Campy customer service.
I then borrowed a Shimano crank for a long ride through the Canadaian Rockies before coming back to the UT problem.
After reinstalling the UT and re-experiencing the problem, I read the various posts, I then checked and replaced the bearings: no change. I had the LBS
reface the bb, which I then measured* and shimmed it per Tristan's suggestions: no change. I then examined replaced the bearing shells (w/Record), looking
for some clearance difference (none found): no change.
By this point, I felt I had eliminated the various issues of crank bolt and bearing shell torque (with and without Loctite 222), issues relating to the wavy
washer, bearing clearance and quality, and both axial and radial play of the crank within the bearing shells. The click persisted.
Next I tried to identify the source of the clicking by hooking up microphones to both sides of the bb (Steelman Chassis Ear). These are sensitive enough to
hear individual chain links travelling over the chain ring, and allow the user to switch between the different pickups for comparison. The surprising result
was that the noise was equally loud on both sides of the bb (allowing for the additional chain noise on the drive side).
Finally, I replaced the crank with a non-UT Shimano--click gone. Close examination of the Hirth joint of the UT shows interesting shiny spots in varying
positions of the interface, indicating possible movement of the joint at these points--rather like the pattern one finds at the interface of ring/pinion
differential gears in cars. This raises the question whether the joint was actually moving, and if so, whether it was the result of poor machining, materials, or
simply a poor design. One could pursue this further, but an R&D budget might be needed.

*surprising to find how this dimension varies frame to frame from mfr.spec., and seems critical for the UT. McMaster Carr is a good source for shims.
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Old 02-07-10, 11:33 AM
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There really is no problem other than Rogue's misunderstanding about how the system works. The first thing he did was take a crank that mostly likely had shot bearings and perhaps worn out cups and tried to fix it with shims rather than doing the most obvious and installing new bearings and cups - a whole new BB. That what you'd do with any other crank.

Campy has a serious problem with their instructions, in this mechanical engineer's opinion. They suggest using purple loctite and hand tightening the cups, IF the BB is not properly faced. The loctite will only work if the factory applied thread locker is first removed and even then "hand tightening" is a poor suggestion.

The best thing you can do is first verify the proper 67.2-68.8mm BB width. Then verify the need for facing by tightening the cups until they contact a .010 inch feeler gage, then use .008-.012 to search for high or low areas. If the runout exceeds .004 inch, the BB definitely needs facing, but it should be done with minimal material removal and the width rechecked after facing, in case a shim is needed. Grease the threads and tighten both cups to 35Nm. Also grease all metal to metal contact areas - inside the cup and the ouside the bearings.

Rogue is actually selling a shim kit to replace the wavy washer that makes no sense at all. With shims, the best you can do is minimize the bearing play down into the .002-.004 inch range, which is really quite loose. This can only be done by installing the left crankarm and tightening the fixing bolt several times, until you stumble upon the right shim stack. The wavy washer applies a constant pressure in the 20-60 pound range to insure zero freeplay and a continual bearing preload, with no guesswork.

It is also vital that the retainer spring be installed on the right side cup.

Chainrings wearing out in 2500 miles sounds very strange. Some people get 20,000 or more. I'd ask if you're riding in awful conditions - sloppy wet and gritty all the time? That would certainly contribute to premature wear.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 02-07-10 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 02-07-10, 01:36 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Campy has a serious problem with their instructions, in this mechanical engineer's opinion. They suggest using purple loctite and hand tightening the cups, IF the BB is not properly faced. The loctite will only work if the factory applied thread locker is first removed and even then "hand tightening" is a poor suggestion.
That is their primary recommendation for installing the cups. They also state this: Note If Loctite 222 is not available tighten the cups to 35Nm

The biggest problem with post #17 is using an inferior method of installation and not pulling the entire system when a click in the bb/crankset area is suspected. Especially since all the components were new, installed by an LBS (who may or ma not know what they were doing). Our standard shop procedure is to install cups with grease and torque to spec. We never ever had a problem with clicking on a brand new install. Poster never mentions that he did anything but torque the cups up to "hand tight". Which is clearly wrong.

What the poster missed doing is disassembling the entire system and retorquing everything up to spec with grease. The cup threads need grease. The bearing cups need grease. Parts that need at least a light coating of grease - bearing cups where the bearings sit, bearing itself, the spindle, the hirth joint and the crank bolt/washer/ threads.

Instead he was left with a wild goose chase hunt on a false premise.

P.S Clearly the LBS had no idea what they were doing. If they did suspect a warranty issue with the crank, the first thing to do would've been to swap it out for another brand new crankset and elminate that variable (including cups) as needed. Bearing replacement and installation can be done at the shop level with or without the correct UT puller/press.

P.P.S After our last discussion on the retainer clip design - I believe you are right. It *is* necessary for the crankset to work properly and the fact that it retains the drive crankarm is incidental, or secondary to proper operation of the crank/bearings.

Last edited by operator; 02-07-10 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 02-07-10, 01:49 PM
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I'd also ask if the chainring mounting bolt areas were ever lubed. That's a common source of clicking that a little light oil or spray lube will fix.

The only time I had this type of clicking noise the real culprit was a rear skewer that needed to be tighter and/or lubed. It had nothing to do with the crank, but you couldn't tell that by listening. A shot of WD-40 and a lighter tighter setting fixed my problem.

The last possibility might be a crank that was actually built out of tolerance, but most shops won't have the measuring tools to check that. If the crank is installed without the wave washer and there is more than 2.5mm of axial play, then the wave washer can't do it's job and some shim needs to be placed under the left cup to get the axial play down to 1.5-2.0mm. That insures some compression of the wave washer.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 02-07-10 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 02-07-10, 03:39 PM
  #21  
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They probably exposed the crankarms to sunlight, which is forbidden by the instruction sheet

Campy has a serious problem with their instructions, in this mechanical engineer's opinion.
The layout of the instruction sheet is quite baffling, too. I think there's some Italians who need to re-take Technical Writing.
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Old 02-08-10, 02:00 PM
  #22  
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shims vs. wavy washer

Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
There really is no problem other than Rogue's misunderstanding about how the system works. The first thing he did was take a crank that mostly likely had shot bearings and perhaps worn out cups and tried to fix it with shims rather than doing the most obvious and installing new bearings and cups - a whole new BB. That what you'd do with any other crank.

Campy has a serious problem with their instructions, in this mechanical engineer's opinion. They suggest using purple loctite and hand tightening the cups, IF the BB is not properly faced. The loctite will only work if the factory applied thread locker is first removed and even then "hand tightening" is a poor suggestion.

The best thing you can do is first verify the proper 67.2-68.8mm BB width. Then verify the need for facing by tightening the cups until they contact a .010 inch feeler gage, then use .008-.012 to search for high or low areas. If the runout exceeds .004 inch, the BB definitely needs facing, but it should be done with minimal material removal and the width rechecked after facing, in case a shim is needed. Grease the threads and tighten both cups to 35Nm. Also grease all metal to metal contact areas - inside the cup and the ouside the bearings.

Rogue is actually selling a shim kit to replace the wavy washer that makes no sense at all. With shims, the best you can do is minimize the bearing play down into the .002-.004 inch range, which is really quite loose. This can only be done by installing the left crankarm and tightening the fixing bolt several times, until you stumble upon the right shim stack. The wavy washer applies a constant pressure in the 20-60 pound range to insure zero freeplay and a continual bearing preload, with no guesswork.

It is also vital that the retainer spring be installed on the right side cup.

Chainrings wearing out in 2500 miles sounds very strange. Some people get 20,000 or more. I'd ask if you're riding in awful conditions - sloppy wet and gritty all the time? That would certainly contribute to premature wear.
I disagree on this issue of shims vs. wavy washer. Obviously, Campy has tested and approved the wavy washer approach. But the variation of 1mm or more in bb dimensions calls for a more exacting installation, for which shims are not a substitute but a supplement. This point is moot in my instance, however, as three different sets of cups, two sets of bearings, and the shims didn't affect the problem described.
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Old 02-08-10, 02:04 PM
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2500 miles on the large chainring was certainly distressing, as was the wear pattern: unevenly distributed, but mainly through abut 120 degrees of the circumference. Contamination wasn't in question, but the quality of the Centaur gear was.
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Old 02-08-10, 02:13 PM
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a number of wrong assumptions in this post are addressed in my reply above and in the text of the original post. The ad hominem remarks will be ignored. However, as to the loctite issue: Campy's instructions call (in microscopic print) for 222, but some of the bearing cups (I used 3 different sets) come with their own locking compound (tacky yellowish bead) pre-applied. Obviously, one uses both at one's own peril, as subsequent disassembly will be difficult. As for the thoughts about grease: the bearing cups are designed to be a slip fit on the bearings, and grease has no place there and will only be displaced upon assembly. Where threads are concerned, grease is the enemy of all loctite compounds.
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Old 02-08-10, 02:18 PM
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chainring mounting bolts is an interesting thought, as they're certainly in the neighborhood of the noise (unlike the rear skewer). If I decide not to trash the crank, I'll check this out, and will probably test those shiny spots on the Hirth gear teeth with machinist's blue dye.
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