phidauex

Hi,

I'm building up a 24" 'offset hub' wheel for one of my 'silly bikes'. It is a normal 24" rim with a shimano front hub. Only, instead of the hub being in the center of the wheel, it will be offset to one side by about 2". This means that nearly every spoke must be a different length! So for my 36 hole setup, I'll need 2 spokes in one of 18 different lengths.

I found a place in town with a Phil Woods spoke cutter/threader, which is nice (apparently this is not a common machine, only one place in all of St. Louis has one (Maplewood Cycles), and they said that they thought they were the only one in the midwest!). He said he'd be happy to cut my spokes for a nominal fee. He found the project amusing, I think. The thing is, he said that I could bring him a list of lengths and he could measure and cut them, but that it would take a lot more time, and he'd have to charge more. He suggested I measure out my own spokes and mark them, so he can just toss them into the machine and do them quickly.

Here is my question... If I use a program like HulaCad to generate my spoke lengths (https://bikeforest.com/CAD/hulaCAD.html which I was amazed and pleased to find), then how should I mark out the spokes?

Is the length measured from the very bottom of the spoke (the base of the hook) to the top of the threaded section? Or is it measured to the base of the threads? Or from the top of the hook? I just need to know how to measure and mark the spokes so they can actually be cut right. Also, for anyone who owns or works with one of these cutters, will the mark I put on the spoke be the top of the threads, or the base of the threads?

Thanks for your advice, this is a tricky project and I'm hoping to get my spokes cut right the first time! Measure 12 times, cut once, right?

Peace,
Sam

phantomcow2

it should be from the bend in the elbow to the end of the threads. So wait your trying to offset the rim 2 inches? Then why need 18 different lengths?

phidauex

Thanks for the information!

Perhaps to clarify, the hub is being made closer to the rim on one side, as opposed to making it highly 'dished'. This will give the wheel a serious vertical 'wobble' as you ride, which is part of the propulsion system.

So, when you are building the wheel, the key spoke will be your shortest spoke, and the spokes will get longer and longer as you work your way around to the spoke opposite the key spoke, and then shorter again as you work your way back up the wheel. So theoretically you'll need about 18 different lengths, and two of each. In reality, the way the numbers round to the nearest mm, there are usually 3 or 4 of each length, but its still a lot of different lengths.

Thanks,
Sam

phantomcow2

well, have fun

Wheel Doctor

Measure from the crook of the hook or bend to the end of the threads. Invest a few bucks in a spoke ruler it will help. PW spoke machines are now $2.9K gotta cut and sell a lot of spokes to pay for that. I paid $800 for mine in 87'. It has paid for itself. There are more out there than your shop thinks. Good luck on your project.

phantomcow2

yea there are more out there indeed. Peter white owns one i know, and hes only 50 miles or so away. Spoke rulers are a friendly buy, i recommend it

phantomcow2

thers also one out there that can be found under 150 made by Hozan, it threads and cuts spokes. ITs not as nice as the philwood and is tedious to use, but it does the job

Wheel Doctor

It uses a die to cut the spokes, it removes metal and the thread can fail under higher tensions. It is ok for simple spoke replacemnts. The PW makes the thread by a roll and crush method identical to the factory method. I cut and threaded a spoke with the PW and compared it to a factory DT under a 10X magnifer and it was nearly identical and mic'ed the same. I threaded a spoke with the HOZAN and it looked like crap under the magnifer and mic'd smaller than the OEM or the PW threaded. I carry the Hozan in my truck bike tool box with some spokes and a cutter for emergencies other than that I won't use it.

I cut 32 black DT's for a guy Saturday less than in 5 minutes on Saturday. I'd be there all day with a HOZAN and I wouldn't trust them. The PW is hideously expensive but it has been a great asset to my business. I still build about 50/60 wheels a year. Mostly recumbent wheels that require shorter spokes that many will ever stock. I built custom and stocking wheels for part of my living from 81' to 91' and 1000's of em'. Today its a speciality since one can buy low to mid range stocking wheels already built for less than I can build them for.

phantomcow2

yea i know the hozan is crap. Its innacurate, the threads are not so nice. Most of my spokes are custom cut with a PW. THe hozan is good for a once and a while i cant find this size spoke situation.

Wheel Doctor

Yup, It's good for that.

phantomcow2

I think if i keep building wheels i might buy a hozan for if I cant find the right size spoke for whatever the reason, down the line though. I want bar ends

phidauex

Excellent, thanks for all the info.

I was thinking about just cutting the spokes myself and using a die to thread them (I've got a pretty good die set), but I figured that sounded too easy.

Sounds like the Phil Wood's cutter doesn't take too long, which is good, because it means I won't pay much to have mine cut.

Wheel Doctor, if you had your way, how would the spokes be marked for cutting on the Phil Wood? Would just a black sharpie line around the spoke at the cut point be best? Or a small piece of tape wrapped around it or something? I'd like to make this as non-tedious as possible for my cutter.

I've been having more fun on my silly bikes these days than my regular ones. I'm building up a double decker right now that should be really comfortable to ride, good geometry. Its amazing how the height of a bike doesn't really change how it fundamendally operates.. It just makes getting on and off more difficult.

peace,
sam

Brian

The Hozan can be had for under $100 with some online searching. I don't know what model you guys are referring to, but my Hozan rolls threads without removing any material. They thread nicely, and I've had no problems. Phil, to respond to your little thinking out loud bit, no, you cannot thread your spokes with a die. That removes material from the spoke, which is really dangerous.

Maybe Sheldon Brown will weigh in on this one, as he's rather outspoken on spoke issues.

Rev.Chuck

We have a Phil at one store, your spoke guy should be able to set up the correct length and then you load them in turn the handle, they come out cut to length and threads rolled.

I have a Hozan at my shop for the occasional odd length spoke needed. Works fine but is to slow for doing a set.

Wheel Doctor

All he needs to know is the lengths in mm. There is a scale on the machine. I check the cut length with a spoke ruler.

Wheel Doctor

https://www.hozan.co.jp/cycle_e/catalog/wheel.stand.htm scroll down and look at the HOZAN Tool and read the description.

Phil tm Spoke Cutting & Threading Machine

· Cuts and threads a spoke to the desired length

· Threads are rolled “cold forged” for maximum strength

· Butted and aero spokes can be cut and threaded on the full diameter portion of the spoke

· Fully capable of handling carbon steel, stainless steel, titanium, and other exotic metals

· Capable of cutting and threading plated spokes






The Phil Spoke Cutting & Threading Machine is designed and manufactured by us to provide an invaluable tool to manually cut and place a factory quality thread on a spoke within just a few seconds. The machine performs its functions through the operation of a manual crank. One revolution of the machine’s handle performs the functions of spoke cutting and threading. The machine is designed to cut and thread 1,8mm and 2,0mm (15 & 14 gage) spokes and place 10mm of 56 TPI thread on the end of the spoke. Butted and aero spokes may be cut and threaded on that portion of the spoke that is full diameter. Rolling the thread on the end of the spoke does not remove material as would occur if the thread were cut on the spoke. The thread is cold forged onto the spoke. It is recommended that high quality spokes be matched with this machine - such as Phil Stainless Steel Spokes. The machine is very capable of forging threads on all standard and exotic metal spokes including the multi-colored titanium and the black stainless steel spokes.

Brian

I'm familiar with both, but I don't know what I was supposed to be looking for on the Hozan site. I need to thread spokes once in a while, I am not a professional wheelbuilder. It works fine. Much as I love to buy expensive toys, I couldn't justify the Phil Spoke machine.

phidauex

Question about the Hozan...

Does the threads it produce fit a standard size nipple? IE, will a 14 gauge spoke (which is 2.0mm in diameter, with 2.2mm threads), still fit a 14 gauge nipple after being threaded with the Hozan? Or will it now require 15 gauge nipples?

Thanks,
Sam

Brian

Mine has 2 heads, one for 14 and one for 15 gauge spokes. Since it rolls threads, rather than cuts them, a 14 gauge is still a 14 gauge after it's been threaded.

phidauex

Sweet, the Hozan sounds like a decent little unit for its price.

A friend of mine is probably going to buy one for making replacements. I'll try it out and see if I can stand threading 36 spokes on it for my offset hub wheel, otherwise its off to the LBS with the Phil Woods cutter.

BTW, best price I've seen for the Hozan C-700 spoke threader is at https://www.aebike.com who has it for 79.99$. Not bad!

Peace,
Sam

Rev.Chuck

Go to the bike shop and have them cut the spokes. The Hozan is handy but man, doing thirty six would be a pain. You do not stick the spoke in there and run the threader down and you are done. You need to do each spoke in stages to not damage the dies. So you insert the spoke, marked for thread depth, run the die in. Then back it out and increase die tension and do it again. It can take a time or two to figure out how tight you need to get the dies and how much you can increase it each pass.

phantomcow2

yea chuck is right. THis thing is reaaally redious to use. Its good for shops, if they need to fix a wheel with a spoke of an unusual size, since usually your not doing many. More tahn 3 spokes will piss you off fast

jasong

People say you measure from inside of bend to the end of the threads, but DT's guide clearly shows different:

https://www.beyondbikes.com/bb/tech/?section=spo

Which is correct? Or do different manufacturers use different methods?

n4zou

You want to build clown wheels. Detailed information on how to make them is available here.
https://bikerodnkustom3.homestead.com/clownwheel.html

LWaB

That link is incorrect. DT sell a spoke ruler that works the same way as everybody else, hang the spoke from a hole (hence inside of bend) and measure to the end.