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why oil chain?

Old 12-30-08, 08:49 AM
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why oil chain?

I have to say I'm a bit puzzled by all this business of oiling chains.

I used to oil my chains like everyone else, but a few years ago I got sick of worrying about grease stains, cleaned my chains with soap and water and haven't oiled them since. Subsequently I don't clean them anymore either because without oil they don't seem to get any dirt on them and have become one of the cleanest parts of my bicycle (I guess the movement shakes it all off and prevents the corrosion I find elsewhere).

I live in a big northeastern us city, close to the water, and my bikes are my main mode of transportation, so it's not like we're talking low mileage in inert desert conditions. I'm also pretty picky about drivetrain efficiency (feeling that singlespeeds offer a tremendous increase in efficiency over internal gears).

I should note that all my bikes are either single speed or internally geared, but I feel like I'm in the twilight zone being the only one advocating unoiled chains. What gives?
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Old 12-30-08, 08:50 AM
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I find if I do not oil my chains, they get sort of irony.
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Old 12-30-08, 09:14 AM
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Without lube, my chains squeak like crazy. A warning signal I've been really slack on the basic maintenance.
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Old 12-30-08, 09:46 AM
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Paging Patrick Stewart!
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Old 12-30-08, 11:14 AM
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I stopped oiling my winter bike chain. It is a junky bike but I live in a high snow, salt, and slop climate and now I get less crud and even less rust. I think because the oil really sucks up the salt and crud.
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Old 12-30-08, 11:51 AM
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Have you tried Teflon dry lube?

Can't really argue what it works better or worse than, but it's a middle ground between a noisy, rusty chain, and one that's an oil dirt magnet.
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Old 12-30-08, 12:19 PM
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I too believe bikes get too much junk applied to them. That said, the reason to lubricate chains is to reduce the wear of the internal parts of the chain to reduce the wear rate and hence the elongation rate of the chain so you don't wear out your cassette and rings too often.

If you are worried about stains, then wipe the lube off the exterior of the chain and use a lube that clings to the internals better. The lube on the outside of a chain serves no real practical purpose. It collects dirt which likely accelerates the wear of the cogs/rings.

I prefer wax-based lubes as all you have to do the clean the chain is wipe it down with a rag. I wipe it down as I lube to keep the outside of the chain as lube free as possible.

Al
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Old 12-30-08, 12:26 PM
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I suspect that if you do not go to great lengths to get the original factory lube out of the inside of your chain then that is what you are running with for lube. Cleaning off the outside of the chain has little bearing on what is happening internally.

After a few hundred miles I add a drop per pin of the Finish Line Teflon Plus pictured above.


Incoming!
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Old 12-30-08, 03:48 PM
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Try measuring your chain-wear over the winter. Try one with lube and the next without lube.
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Old 12-30-08, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by alcanoe
I too believe bikes get too much junk applied to them. That said, the reason to lubricate chains is to reduce the wear of the internal parts of the chain to reduce the wear rate and hence the elongation rate of the chain so you don't wear out your cassette and rings too often.
Yeah, but the question is, does it actually reduce the wear rate as intended and for drive trains with straight chain lines that experience lower wear (such as singlespeed or internally geared) does it even make sense to try and reduce it?

Moreover, what's with all the pikers billowing about how noisy and rusty their chains get without oil? I've not experienced either phenomenon and what does it have to do with internal wear and elongation?

Truth be told I suspect chains used with derailleurs do need their external parts lubricated due to all the lateral rubbing and flexion and that if it weren't for such external lubrication forcing sand and corrosive everywhere then the internal parts of the chain would be lubricated for life prior to assembly, but I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than myself could give a definitive answer because obviously not everyone shares the same experience.

Originally Posted by maddmaxx
I suspect that if you do not go to great lengths to get the original factory lube out of the inside of your chain then that is what you are running with for lube. Cleaning off the outside of the chain has little bearing on what is happening internally.
Well IIRC I gave it a few rounds in a bottle shaker of simple green, the best toothbrush scrub I could muster, followed by a few rounds in a bottle shaker of clean water, a few seconds under the faucet, and finally 10 min in the oven to dry it off. I suppose I could have gone to a greater length by disassembling every link, but that would have compromised the integrity of the chain.

Is it safe to say that chain internals come lubricated for life? Mine have a few thousand miles on them since the big clean including almost two winters and although I'd consider it a good trade off if I had to replace them now they're still going strong!

Last edited by makeinu; 12-30-08 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 12-30-08, 04:30 PM
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The whole idea of not lubricating chains is ridiculous, according to this mechanical engineer. Anyone with any brains should know that a metal to metal interface without lube will wear much faster that one with some lubrication of any sort.

Bike chains are in no way protected or shielded from road grit, so any lube will become contaminated with grit in a few hundred miles or less. Lubes with low viscosity will work their way out of the chain rather quickly. Wiping the exterior reduces the mess, but wiped or not, the chain will end up dry, rusty, noisy and wearing quickly if you don't keep it lubed.

To the OP, do you have any idea how to measure chain wear?
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Old 12-30-08, 05:28 PM
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But if the oil attracts more oil and grit will it still help? Dry lube seems impractical when every ride is in snow
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Old 12-30-08, 06:18 PM
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A drive train which is clean , lubed , has well adjusted derailleurs , good chainline in gear and parts not worn down is fun . It's fun to ride. No weird noise. It feels efficient. The feeling is more "connected to the bike". If something is missing in this equation something feels wrong. To the OP , try a bike with a nice drivetrain for 5 minutes and compare it to your bike. Is it possible you have gotten used to it?

A oil free drivetrain doesn't feel too wrong. Not compared to some overlubed dirt magnet. These should wear down faster than the squeaking chains imho. I think a clean oil free chain should squeak. So your chain still has internal lubrication and or dirt which makes your chain not squeak. If you think the chain is ok there should be not too much wrong with it. Keep in mind you could ruin the drivetrain and cassete fast if it's real bad. Lots of people cycle around with the worst chains and could care less about that. They still get forward.

You have derailleurless bikes. Look into a chain case. Then you don't have any reason not to lube your chain. I know they look ugly and maybe not like racing.
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Old 12-30-08, 08:04 PM
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Hey, the guy doesn't care about his chains. Let it be. I got into this conversation over on cycling forums and one guy claimed riding through puddles in pouring down rain was how he cleaned his chain. When he got home, he wiped it dry and poured on some lube. Claimed he got mega miles out of his chains, too. Worked for him. bk
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Old 12-30-08, 09:24 PM
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Well, ss/fixie chains certainly need less lube. But, I am the more maintenance oriented cyclist of the people I know and when I overhaul their chains, geared or fixed, they definitely feel the difference. I should start charging. And a well lubed and clean chain is definitely quieter. My friend's fixie sounded like a mini meat grinder from all the grit. Don't know about squeaks - never heard a bike, besides tires, squeak.

Speaking of which, I've been on the "moderation queue" for cyclingforums.com for a week or two after signing up. They are really slow or I just slipped through the cracks. I don't recall BF having such a hassle. Or maybe they know my goal is to have an account in every bike oriented forum and just be an active member only here...
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Old 12-30-08, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
The whole idea of not lubricating chains is ridiculous, according to this mechanical engineer. Anyone with any brains should know that a metal to metal interface without lube will wear much faster that one with some lubrication of any sort.

Bike chains are in no way protected or shielded from road grit, so any lube will become contaminated with grit in a few hundred miles or less. Lubes with low viscosity will work their way out of the chain rather quickly. Wiping the exterior reduces the mess, but wiped or not, the chain will end up dry, rusty, noisy and wearing quickly if you don't keep it lubed.

To the OP, do you have any idea how to measure chain wear?
Well this (electrical) engineer thinks that the best way to measure chain wear is to see how long it lasts (which is the only measure of practical value). So far almost two years of daily commuting (over 4000 miles) with no detectable problems or loss of efficiency.

No doubt lubricant is necessary, but perhaps for cycling the lubrication applied prior to chain assembly is enough for the life of the chain (at least relative to the abrasive mixture that any lubricant applied post-assembly quickly becomes...implication being that "lubricant" applied to a bicycle chain is never really lubricant at all). I don't know. I'm only going on what I've found with my bicycles (which, again, is the only measure of practical value...at least for me). Thing I'm trying to understand is why I'm the only one who seems to have figured this out.

Originally Posted by mkael
A drive train which is clean , lubed , has well adjusted derailleurs , good chainline in gear and parts not worn down is fun . It's fun to ride. No weird noise. It feels efficient. The feeling is more "connected to the bike". If something is missing in this equation something feels wrong. To the OP , try a bike with a nice drivetrain for 5 minutes and compare it to your bike. Is it possible you have gotten used to it?
Nope. Unlubed singlespeed drivetrain still feels way more efficient than a, presumably, lubed derailleur geared bike from the showfloor of the LBS. In fact, that's half the reason I ride a singlespeed. No mess, no muss, no fuss, and it still feels more efficient.

I have to wonder, have you tried a bike that doesn't have a derailleur without a lubed chain? Not trying to turn the tables here, but I just can't understand why people lube their chains. I understand all the theory, but in practice I've found no advantage unless a derailleur is involved.

Originally Posted by mkael
You have derailleurless bikes. Look into a chain case. Then you don't have any reason not to lube your chain. I know they look ugly and maybe not like racing.
I don't have any reason to lube my chain as it is (other than feeling like I'm in the twilight zone). Works perfectly. In my eyes, chain oiling is a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist.

Last edited by makeinu; 12-30-08 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 12-30-08, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by makeinu



Nope. Unlubed singlespeed drivetrain still feels way more efficient than a, presumably, lubed derailleur geared bike from the showfloor of the LBS. In fact, that's half the reason I ride a singlespeed. No mess, no muss, no fuss, and it still feels more efficient.

I have to wonder, have you tried a bike that doesn't have a derailleur without a lubed chain? Not trying to turn the tables here, but I just can't understand why people lube their chains.



I don't have any reason to lube my chain as it is (other than feeling like I'm in the twilight zone). Works perfectly.
There was a misunderstanding. I agree singlespeed is more efficient than the derailleurs. I was speaking of unlubed vs lubed efficiency. Derailleur or not. I believe a clean lubed chain is more efficient in both cases.

How much people want to do maintenance depends.
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Old 12-30-08, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mkael
There was a misunderstanding. I agree singlespeed is more efficient than the derailleurs. I was speaking of unlubed vs lubed efficiency. Derailleur or not. I believe a clean lubed chain is more efficient in both cases.
Well, I believe a clean lubed chain is more efficient too....I'm just skeptical that adding oil at home actually lubes a chain. Dripping, dipping, soaking just ends up filling the internals with a mixture "made of oil and silicon dioxide (sand) and silicon carbide (sand). You couldn't do it better if you tried to destroy a chain" (quote Porsche Engineer and author of "The Bicycle Wheel", Jobst Brandt).
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Old 12-31-08, 12:47 AM
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i have not ran into an unlubbed chain that has not been squeaky, have you ever seen a chain that has been out in the weather for a long time unlubbed it gets dirty and rusty then it gets froze up and wont bend but as soon as you take a little wd40 to it it frees right up and becomes bendable again why does it do this? becaus the oil loosens up dirt and rust and slowly works the dirt and rust out of the chain, yes the outside of the chain collects dust nothing you can do about that, i rebuild and restore antique engines and tractors i have seen the kind of dirt and rust it can work out of a stuck piston that has been stuck like that for 80 years, when you have metal to metal rubbing together it wears when you throw some dirt in the picture it wears faster now lets throw some oil in thier now the metal is not rubbing on the metal no more and now the dirt has a harder time sanding away the metal caus thier is lubricant between the dirt and metal so the dirt has a harder time rubbing against the metal, its like taking a piece of sand paper to raw metal it will sand away now if you put oil on the metal and try to sand it it does not sand nearly as easily, its also like taking the oil out af the transmission on your car and drivin off first it starts not shifting right next your walking, its the same with a chain no oil it breaks down the chain and sprockets wheather its a single or 27 speed bike, i would rather lube my chain to keep my $50 chain and $100 9spd cassette from wearing out it gets expensive replacing this stuff all the time, i have been wondering if you do not oil your chain how much oil is in your car, you may be walkin soon
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Old 12-31-08, 05:52 AM
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Finally, someone has figured this out! I can't believe that we have been using lubricants on our bike chains since 1874--what a bunch of chumps we are!

Seriously, anyone thinking that they have "discovered" something new about bicycle chains has a lot of history to contend with. But hey, what do I know? I am just one of about a billion bike riders that came before me...
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Old 12-31-08, 08:09 AM
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IMHO, it seems pretty extreme to forgo lubricating a chain based on fear of getting a little dirty. Phobic maybe?
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Old 12-31-08, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cody k
i have not ran into an unlubbed chain that has not been squeaky, have you ever seen a chain that has been out in the weather for a long time unlubbed it gets dirty and rusty then it gets froze up and wont bend but as soon as you take a little wd40 to it it frees right up and becomes bendable again why does it do this? becaus the oil loosens up dirt and rust and slowly works the dirt and rust out of the chain, yes the outside of the chain collects dust nothing you can do about that, i rebuild and restore antique engines and tractors i have seen the kind of dirt and rust it can work out of a stuck piston that has been stuck like that for 80 years, when you have metal to metal rubbing together it wears when you throw some dirt in the picture it wears faster now lets throw some oil in thier now the metal is not rubbing on the metal no more and now the dirt has a harder time sanding away the metal caus thier is lubricant between the dirt and metal so the dirt has a harder time rubbing against the metal, its like taking a piece of sand paper to raw metal it will sand away now if you put oil on the metal and try to sand it it does not sand nearly as easily, its also like taking the oil out af the transmission on your car and drivin off first it starts not shifting right next your walking, its the same with a chain no oil it breaks down the chain and sprockets wheather its a single or 27 speed bike, i would rather lube my chain to keep my $50 chain and $100 9spd cassette from wearing out it gets expensive replacing this stuff all the time, i have been wondering if you do not oil your chain how much oil is in your car, you may be walkin soon
You're confusing rust and wear. The chain of a bicycle (or any other machine) left out in the rain is no more prone to rust than any other part. I suppose oil would help with rust, but I haven't found rust to be a problem if you don't leave things outside in the rain.

I'm not trying to be combative here, but your conclusions just don't match up with what I see on my bikes (and I don't care if every other bicycle in the world works the way you say it does...if it doesn't work with my bikes then it's worthless).

Could it be the case that the real problem with your antique tractors and engines is that they are left out in the rain; And the real problem with not oiling a car engine is that the loads and mileage are much higher; And the real problem with not oiling the chain on your 9spd cassette is the metal/metal sliding caused by sideways flexion (after all...the reason chains have rollers is because the friction is presumably much less than regular metal/metal sliding); And that all these things more expensive to replace than a simple single speed chain (which is most likely cheaper than a bottle of oil)?

Sorry to be difficult, but I'm asking for an explanation of the facts here (why I haven't found the smallest disadvantage to not oiling a chain without a derailleur) and what I'm getting are explanations for the opposite of the facts (why not oiling a chain creates a big disadvantage). It's frustrating.

Originally Posted by stevetone
Finally, someone has figured this out! I can't believe that we have been using lubricants on our bike chains since 1874--what a bunch of chumps we are!

Seriously, anyone thinking that they have "discovered" something new about bicycle chains has a lot of history to contend with. But hey, what do I know? I am just one of about a billion bike riders that came before me...
And that, sir, is why I made this thread. Who's the guy that figured it out before me that all the chumps wrote off and what else did he learn? It wouldn't be the first time that the empty headed cyclolemmings squandered some nugget of cycling wisdom.

Last edited by makeinu; 12-31-08 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 12-31-08, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rogerstg
IMHO, it seems pretty extreme to forgo lubricating a chain based on fear of getting a little dirty. Phobic maybe?
You are traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A dimension where it's considered extreme for professionals to keep grease stains off of their suits. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination. Next stop, the Twilight Zone!

Last edited by makeinu; 12-31-08 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 12-31-08, 08:55 AM
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Unless I see some real measurements on that chain that was ridden for 4,000 miles with no lube, all the statements about how well it's working are meaningless. Chain and cogs wear in together and will function adquately for a long time when there is no shifting involved.

When I do a chain wear test, at the end, I know how much elongation the chain has suffered, how much the rollers have worn (both OD and ID) and how much the side clearance has increased. I could make that same kind of ignorant statement about one of my 10 speed chains. I used one for 6,000 miles once and regularly checked it for elongation with a precision 12" scale. After all those miles, the length had not increased by more than 1/64 of an inch, or 1/4 of the "allowable" 1/16 inch per foot elongation. Did that mean that the chain could be used for 24,000 miles? Of course not. Upon more critical inspection, even though the pins and inner plate bushings were worn very little, the rollers were severely worn and the side clearance had increased to nearly twice the original amount. This chain was lubricated after nearly every ride.

The function of a chain on a 9 to 11 speed derailleur equipped bike is much more cirtical than that a single speed or internal geared bike, where no shifting is involved and the chain is never used at an angle. The only way that a single speed setup will fail is if the chain pitch increases enough that contact with the cog rises to the very tip of the tooth and breaks the tooth. Until that point I guess you could claim that the chain worked perfectly. In reality it was not working perfectly for a very long time prior to that.
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Old 12-31-08, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Unless I see some real measurements on that chain that was ridden for 4,000 miles with no lube, all the statements about how well it's working are meaningless. Chain and cogs wear in together and will function adquately for a long time when there is no shifting involved.

When I do a chain wear test, at the end, I know how much elongation the chain has suffered, how much the rollers have worn (both OD and ID) and how much the side clearance has increased. I could make that same kind of ignorant statement about one of my 10 speed chains. I used one for 6,000 miles once and regularly checked it for elongation with a precision 12" scale. After all those miles, the length had not increased by more than 1/64 of an inch, or 1/4 of the "allowable" 1/16 inch per foot elongation. Did that mean that the chain could be used for 24,000 miles? Of course not. Upon more critical inspection, even though the pins and inner plate bushings were worn very little, the rollers were severely worn and the side clearance had increased to nearly twice the original amount. This chain was lubricated after nearly every ride.

The function of a chain on a 9 to 11 speed derailleur equipped bike is much more cirtical than that a single speed or internal geared bike, where no shifting is involved and the chain is never used at an angle. The only way that a single speed setup will fail is if the chain pitch increases enough that contact with the cog rises to the very tip of the tooth and breaks the tooth. Until that point I guess you could claim that the chain worked perfectly. In reality it was not working perfectly for a very long time prior to that.
Nicely put. However, I disagree with your interpretation about what is significant/meaningful and what isn't.

The "real measurement" of interest is how long a chain will function as intended. Measures of length and critical inspection have meaning insofar as they are a proxy for the lifespan of chain function (however function is defined). As you said "chain and cogs wear in together and will function adequately for a long time when there is no shifting involved." Failure or lack of failure to function is reality. So as an engineer, anything else you measure is merely pedantic navel gazing and I think the conclusion we should draw from your insights is that chains which aren't derailed may be regarded as lubricated for life out of the box.
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