crock

Why do indexed shifting systems have the index mechanism in the shifter instead of the derailleur? It would seem that the system would work more accurately if the index mechanism was on the derailleur so that the cable stretch/slack would not effect the adjustment.

AEO

ever used friction shifters? remnant of that.
it's also easier and cheaper to maintain derailers with less fine parts which will get banged around and gunked up.

meb

I would assume because it's easier to adjust the alignment with a barrel than taking a tool to the deraileur.

There were some Ppositron deraileurs with the indexing in the deraileurs but it never caught on.

KTse

Just to speculate... the indexing portions would be much more exposed to the elements because they are at wheel level and therefore would eventually become full of dirt and grit mixing attracted by the required grease.

Berre

Cable stretch is limited and very easy to correct. Maintaining a complicated derailleur would be much more labour intensive than it is today.

ascend

The indexing benefits the rider, not the derailer. Might as well have it at your fingertips where you get useful feedback from it, otherwise it'd just be as much of a crapshoot as friction shifting.

Bill Kapaun

You'd STILL have to pull a certain amount of cable from the shifter. Why have 2 finicky parts?

maddmaxx 

Go electric, that's where the indexing is.

smovlov

A CRAPSHOOT!!! C'omon now, its not that hard!

fenderbender

Ad to this it's also easier for a manufacturer to design the parts so that in order to get the optimal performance you have to use the hole grupo. With pripriatory parts the manufacturer have his ass covered and know how many units to produce, as he Bike manufacturers can't use other parts while the patent last (5 years?).
Also there was many badly made indexed parts (SunTour Accushift come to mind) that were supposed to be interchangeable but in practice weren't. So consumers became even more reluctant to buy bikes with mixed parts.
The grupo craze came about at the same time as the first good working indexed gears were introduced in the 80's. One of the reasons for the rapid demise or fusion of many European parts manufacurers as they had neither the marketing budget or complete, good working indexed grupos.

borgagain

But it is a skill that must be learned. Some folks would rather put up with the imprecision of a complicated mechanical device than invest a small amount of time to learn a skill and truly simplify their lives.

Oh m'gosh, I really am a cranky old guy!

HillRider

There are some factual errors here.

First, within most brands (Shimano, Campy, SRAM) the components can be mixed and matched among groups. For example, you can use Ultegra brifters with 105 derailleurs and Dura Ace hubs and brakes. Campy and SRAM allow similar cross-group interchangeability.

There is even a fair bit of cross-brand capability as SRAM cassettes are spaced identically to Shimano's and caliper brakes interchange among every make. Jtek's Shiftmate will let you use nearly any combination of brifters, derailleurs and cassettes.

Second, I don't remember Sun Tour's Accushift ever being recommended as interchangeable with any other brand. Initially it wasn't as good as Shimano indexing but it wasn't advertised as a direct substitute either. BTW, Campy's first two trys at indexing (Syncro I and II) were pretty dismal too.

Finally, bike manufacturers can use what ever parts they want to buy. They aren't limited by patents (which are valid for 20 years, not 5). What the patents do is keep one manufacturer from using another's design. For example, Campy couldn't copy Shimano's STI design for the duration of Shimano's patents and SRAM couldn't copy either STI or Ergo. However, Trek, Cannondale, etc. could buy from whoever they wished.

I agree on your synopsis as to why many of the small European companies either merged or faded but several Japanese companies (SR and Sun Tour being two) did to. They couldn't compete with Shimano and Campy in developing new indexing technology and/or didn't have the marketing and sales expertise.

tatfiend 

BTW not a derailleur setup but the Rohloff gear hub does have the indexing in the hub, not the shifter. It does add the complication of two cables from the shifter to the hub as it is a pull-pull setup. Pull one cable for upshifts and the other for downshifts.

The Rohloff is the only bike transmission I am aware of that works this way.

cbtumedic

Also you would have to have a diff RD for each gearing set up (i.e. 7 spd, 8 spd, 9 spd, 10 spd) along with the diff shifters for each. So the co's would be reluctant to offer all those options and people with 7 and 8 speed bikes would be forced to uprgrade at the first sign of trouble. The way it is now you can use any RD with all diff speed bikes.

triplebutted

No you aren't. I was thinking the same thing. I ride with downtube shifters in the local SoCal hammerfest (one the other day where Floyd Landis was riding on).

I guess if you started out with that type of shifting, its quite easy.

rxda90

My dearly departed 1981 Schwinn World Tourist had the indexing mechanism in the rear derailer, which, incidentally, was unsprung, so the derailer cable was actually a push-pull arrangement. Also had the front freewheel system.

HillRider

Well, as it is you need a different shifter for each gearing set-up and the shifters, particularly brifters, are quite expensive to replace or upgrade. The cost and complexity would probably be the same either way.

dvs cycles

You would need 2 cables also. One to shift up and one to shift down.
If Shimano's new electric works, it will be close to indexing at the RD though controled by the CPU.

sonatageek

Because Shimano Positron didn't work too well and the SIS that replaced it does. Positron is indexed in the RD and SIS is in the shifter.

fuzz2050

Time for obscure bike trivia time! White Industries made a set that worked like that.

https://blackmountaincycles.blogspot....-shifters.html

Don't look like it's a lot of fun to have to work on though.

HillRider

IIRC, Positron was introduced before all of the current cog ramps and shaped teeth and chain enhancements that have made indexing so fast and reliable. I wonder how it would work with modern cassettes and chains.

BTW, to those who rhapsodize over friction shifting, remember today's friction shifting is far better than in the past for the same reason. Modern cog, chain and chainring shapes that make indexing possible also make friction shifting far faster and more positive.

fenderbender

Before the introduction of index components bike manufacturers would mix and match gear components not only from groups but from various brands.

Sram started out as a parts producer and the only way to gain access to the market was to imitate. I'm quite sure they pay royalties for this and their cassettes are now one of the very rare non-grupo part found. Also fail to see why you involve brakes in the discussion, or the J-Tek converters as I don't see any bikes on the market being sold with it as standard.

For years SunTour claimed interchangeability of their indexed gear parts from different groups. This was rarely the case and worse was that often enough it didn't even worked when using parts within the same group! All this is well know and you can read more about in SUNSET FOR SUNTOUR .

The point is that they rarely do, and increasingly so after the introduction of index gears.

The reason for SunTour's demise was quite different to that of European parts makers. They had the market pretty much sewn up when they began producing one badly functioning indexed gear group after the other.

So no factual errors just you missing my point.

LesterOfPuppets

Hmmm, I still love my Suntour XC Pro thumbshifters. Never could get used to trigger shifters, they give me the willies. Gripshift has been nice to me, however.

I sure hope indexing in the derailers never becomes popular, since I still run friction DT shifters on my road bike and can put darn near any rear derailer that will handle my gear cluster on there and have it work. I may have to set aside a fund just in case, so I can build up a derailer inventory...

fenderbender

Same year the 8sp Gripshift twist shifters were introduced Shimano started using a softer spring in their rear derailleur. So these never worked as well as Shimano's own rapidfire shifters. Sure enough it didn't take long before aftermarket devices to remedy this started to pile up on the shop shelves. But in my experience this never completely solved the need to overshift. I was one of those cheated into first buying the shifters, and then the after market fix. As I worked extra at my LBS I remember that we had to face lots of disappointed customers. As neither SunTour or Gripshift was keen to issue any recalls the shops had to pick up the tab for sorting out these problems. Many there for boycotted their stuff for years to come. SunTour went bust and Gripshift certainly would have done the same if it wasn't bought up and renamed. Still have a set of NOS Gripshift with Nightcrawler's and Power springs in my pile of gear rejects, as I've stayed with Shimano from then on! No wonder eh?

HillRider

Manufacturers still mix brands today. Many bikes come with an all Shimano or all Campy drivetrain except for the crank and bottom bracket which are often FSA or Truvative or even a house brand.

Sure, any newcomer has to be really innovative or pay the current patent royalties. I just used brakes as an illustration of components that are brand indifferent. My mentioning the Jtek is to point out that while bike manufacturers stay with a single supplier (except as noted above), you and I don't have to. We can mix-and-match over a pretty wide choice of components.

OK, you have me here. I didn't realize the Sun Tour groups weren't interchangable even within themselves. Then again, initially Dura Ace wasn't interchangable with other Shimano groups either. I did know Sun Tour's first attempts at indexing were pretty poor, as were Campy's.

And, yes I've read Frank Berto's very interesting article.

Frank Berto gives several reasons for Sun Tour's demise and poor indexing was only one. As noted, Campy survived two failed attempts at developing index shifting so some other factors were also at play in Sun Tour's failure.