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wheel builders help

Old 06-21-09, 08:31 PM
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wheel builders help

I have built up a set of ultegra and cpx 33 wheels spokes are double butted 2.0 -1.8's now my trouble.
tension on the drive side is in the 140's, a little high for mavic but on the other hand the nondrive side is 80's. .kind of low. now if we stay at 140 drive side 3/4 of that should be around 110 for the nondrive side. any thing else and the dish is off. I dont get it.
Am I not seeing something here?
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Old 06-21-09, 08:48 PM
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That seems a little severe. From what I've measured the typical differential for 8, 9, and 10-speed rear wheels is about 35 to 37%. My latest build was about 85 kgf and 135 kgf, 2.0-1.5-2.0 non-drive, and 2.0-1.8-2.0 driveside.

I recommend that you do the final dish and true with the tire on the wheel and fully inflated. You'll see those tension numbers come down some. And the air pressure may help on the dish.

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Old 06-21-09, 09:05 PM
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Keep in mind that the percentages don't necessarily stay the same as average tension changes. I would loosen everything a couple of turns (1/2 turn at a time, going around the whole wheel each time), redish, and then recheck the tension. You might be surprised.
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Old 06-21-09, 09:29 PM
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yeah, I have done this a couple of times. every time I bring it back up to tension and get everything straight and true this is where I end up. OR the non drive side is rediculously low and then the spokes loosen as I ride.
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Old 06-21-09, 09:54 PM
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Where did you stop on the DS when you first checked the tension? Experience tells me that the easiest way to screw up a wheel build is to run the tension too high (and 140 is too high for many rims). After that, there's a possibility of the rim being a PIA forever.

I always bring the DS up to approx 90 and check to be sure, then go up slowly. 1/2 turn all the way wround, check tension, then repeat those two steps until the DS is around 110 and see if the NDS is at least 65. True and dish, then recheck and bring the DS finally up to 120 (for most of my favorite rims).
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Old 06-22-09, 01:24 AM
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How do you have the cassette and axle-spacers set up? Using 9 or 10 speed? What you want to do is place the small-cog as close to the drop-out face as possible to reduce dish (about 3.5-4mm). Usually you can move the washer underneath the locknut to the other side and reduce dish by about 2-3mm.
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Old 06-22-09, 05:03 AM
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Its a standard ultegra 6600 hub. I am going to try to reduce the tension and start over. but like I said the real problem is going to be the lack of tension on the nondrive side.
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Old 06-22-09, 07:33 AM
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ok I have 124 - 138 for the most part on drive side . however the non drive side is 60 - 70 seems kind of loose on the non drive side. and this is with the tire on and inflated
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Old 06-22-09, 08:01 AM
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That is strange, especially with that rim. Just to be sure, are you flipping it in the stand to make sure the dish is the same each way?
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Old 06-22-09, 09:58 AM
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yes, I have checked it multiple times. it is as perfect as I can get it with this equipment. in your opinion with my stated tension of 124- 138 on the drive side what should the non drive side tension be? roughly, I am not looking for hard # just ball park. just so I can kind of see where I need to be.
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Old 06-22-09, 01:54 PM
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On a recently built wheel, driveside (FSA tension-meter) shows around 130Kgf, non-driveside at around 75 - 80Kgf. It works perfectly, though I didn't build it.
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Old 06-22-09, 01:57 PM
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On Ultegra hubs with those spokes on each side, I would expect the NDS to be 75-90 for that driveside tension. 60 is not a dangerous tension, though. It's just right down there almost as low as you want to go.

I suppose you could put thinner spokes on the NDS, and maybe even straight 14s on the DS, to bring the NDS tension back up if it's that concerning to you.
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Old 06-22-09, 02:06 PM
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8/9/10 speed - right? What's the over locknut dimension?
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Old 06-22-09, 02:32 PM
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o.l.d. is stock 130. its a brand new ultegra 6600.

yeah the low # concerns me because at my weight 230 lbs the spokes have a tendancy to loosen. for the life of me I cant seem to come up with a reason for this
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Old 06-22-09, 02:35 PM
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I've built a few sets where the NDS tension was in the 60 kg range. I don't understand what the concern is. That's still over 120 lbs for 1 spoke. Are the NDS spokes actually loosening, or is this your assumption?

140 is high on the DS though. I'd bring that down to 120 +/- and the NDS will take on whatever tension is required to get the right amount of dish. If you're still worried, don't lube the NDS spoke threads.
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Old 06-22-09, 02:36 PM
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While supporting a load and the spokes are at the bottom of the wheel, they are at their loosest state. If too loose, the nipples can turn and loosen. At least I think that's how it works.

I don't recall, what's the max tension for the CXP33?
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Old 06-22-09, 02:39 PM
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The other thing to consider is the CXP33 are pretty stiff rims, which helps distribute the weight of the rider to more spokes.

Also, if you properly stress relieve the spokes and your wheel is not warped, then you have not exceeded the maximum tension of the rim.
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Old 06-22-09, 03:01 PM
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no nothing warped. yes stress relieved. I have one set that has a problem with loosening spoke. I have built several set in the last year and three sets have this low tension issue, all on the non drive side.
I just cant figure out why the tension is so low on the n.d.s. makes no sense.
Another thing you should understand is that I travel for work for a couple of weeks at a time so when mechanical complications get in the way of my ridding I get a little nutz, ( well ok more than a little) that is why this may seem a little obsesive
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Old 06-22-09, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ls01 View Post
no nothing warped. yes stress relieved. I have one set that has a problem with loosening spoke. I have built several set in the last year and three sets have this low tension issue, all on the non drive side.
I just cant figure out why the tension is so low on the n.d.s. makes no sense.
Another thing you should understand is that I travel for work for a couple of weeks at a time so when mechanical complications get in the way of my ridding I get a little nutz, ( well ok more than a little) that is why this may seem a little obsesive
Damon Rinard's spoke length calculator shows the % of tension for NDS given the bracing angles. Assuming you are using 32 spokes x3, I'm getting about 56% tension for the NDS. This comes in just about exactly what you are seeing 80/140 = 57%

I don't think this is anything out of the ordinary.
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Old 06-22-09, 05:07 PM
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Try balancing the spoke-angles between the two sides. Add a 5mm spacer to the left and make it 135mm OLD if your frame can take it. You'll see the spoke-tensions being much, much more even between the left & right sides.
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Old 06-23-09, 07:48 AM
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good thought danno, but carbon dont like that kind of stress.
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Old 06-23-09, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rydaddy View Post
Damon Rinard's spoke length calculator shows the % of tension for NDS given the bracing angles. Assuming you are using 32 spokes x3, I'm getting about 56% tension for the NDS. This comes in just about exactly what you are seeing 80/140 = 57%

I don't think this is anything out of the ordinary.
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Old 06-23-09, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rydaddy View Post
Damon Rinard's spoke length calculator shows the % of tension for NDS given the bracing angles. Assuming you are using 32 spokes x3, I'm getting about 56% tension for the NDS. This comes in just about exactly what you are seeing 80/140 = 57%

I don't think this is anything out of the ordinary.
wow, thanks. after reading this I dont know if I should be relieved or disturbed. but thats confirmation that I didnt do it wrong anyways. I guess I will just have to put some linseed oil on them.
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Old 06-23-09, 08:19 PM
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Most of the rear wheels that I've measured - coming from before the time most people had tension-meters - showed an average tension of 140Kgf & 80Kgf approx. And they were all great wheels that had served their owners riders well for a long time.

I'm becoming sorry that the Park Tool TM-1 ever hit the market. Mostly what I see it do is scare and frustrate the crap out of newcomers to wheel-building.

Ride your new wheel into the ground! May it take decades! Congratulations - it's a WHEEL!
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Old 06-23-09, 08:49 PM
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One other thing that I have been thinking about is the relationship between the spoke, tension and dish. I can get two, but not three, at the same time. It really is a balancing act. I have three things to concern myself with in reguard to a rear wheel. dish,bracing angles, and spoke length.
with modern rear wheels there is very little angle to the spokes on the D.S. Angle is what gives the rim its strength, well that and tension. being that these spokes have a very limited amount of bracing angle they have a hard time resisting lateral forces. If you think about a wheel with just the D.S. spokes that rim would be pretty loose, because there is no opposing force to act on the drive side spokes. sure they are tensioned radially but there is very little holding the rim in place laterally. because the spokes are almost straight, no angle at all. bracing angle is most effective, strongest, at 45 degrees. the further we deviate away from 45 degrees the weeker it becomes. that is why the N.D.S. spokes are so effective. the large amount of angle. thats why it balances against a high tension but steeper angle spoke. So in looking at this I realised a couple of things.
I can get my wheel to have good tension on both sides as long as I gave up the dish. or I could have the correct dish if I gave up tension on the N.D.S.
The one thing that was sticking out in my mind was the fact that I could get the correct tension just not at the dish that I wanted. the next question is of course why not? because when the N.D.S. spokes begin come up to tension we run out of room. we have to stop for dish. so why dont we start coming up to tension sooner. or said another way. I think my Drive side spokes are a couple of m.m. to long.
If the d.s. spokes were shorter the rim would start out farther to the right when the N.D.S. spokes , with thier superiour bracing angle, would start to pull them to the left. that would give the rim farther to move , thus giving the N.D.S. spokes farther to move the rim .and at the same time increasing the tension.
Now this is just a theory, it makes sence in my brain but that doesnt always meen anything in the real world. let me know what you guys think. on one hand I hope it is just this easy and I can fix my wheels, but on the other hand I kinda hope Im wrong cause if I not, I will have to fix my wheels.
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