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spoke calculators disagreeing

Old 06-22-09, 05:15 AM
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dabac
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spoke calculators disagreeing

Hi guys,

Didn't think it' ever come to that, but here I am, writing a post about which spokes to use...

Got a Ritchey OCR Pro rim, and a Shimano Deore disc brake rear hub. When I measure the rim I get that an ERD of 543 mm should leave the spoke end sitting flush with the top of the nipple. (measured with cut down spokes, on several places and all that.)

When I feed the numbers through the DT calculator it gives the ERD as 542, and recommends 250 mm spokes for 2X, and 261 mm spokes for 3X.

When I feed the numbers through Damon Rinard's spocalc I get 252 for 2X, and 262 for 3X. But his chart has the ERD down as 545(542+3 mm for nipple heads).

I could do with some decision support on three issues:

1) which calc to trust, DT or spocalc?

2) 2X or 3X?
Having just broken a bunch of spokes right where they exit the nipples on a wheel built with an extreme high flange (87mm) wheel I'm kinda hesitant to use 3X this time, as the Deore hub with its 61 mm is fairly high flange too. (on a 26" rim)

3) what about the spocalc extra 3 mm? The 1 mm discrepancy between my measured value of 543 ERD and the listed value of 542 mm is no biggie, and easily attributed to measurement error. But I got mine from using nipples in there, and spocalc wants to add a whopping 3 mm on top of that.
If my measurements were to be spot on, then spocalc's recommended length sure wouldn't give much room for tweaks.

Just to add some fuel to the fire of hesitation I have a set of 262 mm spokes at home already, which according to Spocalc should be spot on, and within tolerances according to DT...
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Old 06-22-09, 06:14 AM
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use your measured erd and DT's calculator
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Old 06-22-09, 06:34 AM
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is it an off center rim?
since you have the rim, I would use the ERD you got off of the rim.
also DT swiss center to flange measurements aren't correct so you have to put those in manually.
oh, and make sure DT swiss calc is giving you 12mm nipples and not 14mm or 16mm.
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Old 06-22-09, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AEO View Post
is it an off center rim?
Yep, but as it's listed I assume that the offset is being handled by the calculators

Originally Posted by AEO View Post
..since you have the rim, I would use the ERD you got off of the rim.
Well, mine and DT are as close to agreement as I'm ever going to hope for for something measured with a ruler. spocalc's is the weird one out.

Originally Posted by AEO View Post
... DT swiss center to flange measurements aren't correct so you have to put those in manually.
Did that. Had to anyway. Pics may follow.

Originally Posted by AEO View Post
..make sure DT swiss calc is giving you 12mm nipples and not 14mm or 16mm.
It is, thanks.
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Old 06-22-09, 09:09 AM
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also, which spokes are you using in the dt calc? it automatically subtracts 1mm for revolutions.
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Old 06-22-09, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AEO View Post
also, which spokes are you using in the dt calc?
DT Champ for DS and DT Comp for NDS. Should make the strain in the spokes come out fairly evenly.
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Old 06-22-09, 01:38 PM
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1. Measure the rim such that you are aiming for the flat of the nipple...NOT THE TOP!!!

(I'll go with DT's R=542)

2. Assuming the following:

h = 32
r = 62
cdisc = 34.5
cdrive = 19.5

3X SLdisc = 261.98 @ 262.00
3X SLdrive = 260.50 @ 260.00

This assumes that the spoke heads are 2.0mm...subtract another .5mm for 1.8mm.

Once again...when measuring the rim...aim for the flat of the nipple...i.e., if the inner wall is 2mm thick...add 4mm to your inner diameter. Stretch will result in spokes getting to or slightly past the nipple flat.

I use my own calculator written in C++ and published under the GNU License. If interested...I'll post a link to my website for download.

=8-)
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Old 06-22-09, 05:13 PM
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Yes, please post your calculator!

I prefer Rinard's calculator because it can calculate lengths from user-inputted values (no erroneous look-up tables).
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Old 06-22-09, 08:03 PM
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not only that, you can use fractional crosses for mixing hole counts between rim and wheel.
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Old 06-22-09, 10:05 PM
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https://www.mrrabbit.net/SPOKE.EXE
https://www.mrrabbit.net/SPOKE.OBJ
https://www.mrrabbit.net/SPOKE.CPP

Released under the GNU / GPL

1. Runs in MS-DOS emulation window in 95, 98, 2k, XP...
1. Assumes 2.0 spoke heads in standard drilled hub holes.
2. Work one side of a wheel at a time...

Adjustments:

If 1.8 (15g) in standard hole drilled hub - subtract .5mm from result.

=8-)

You can port as is to a Unix, Linux or OSX box and compile so long as the box in question has the libraries/headers listed in the .cpp file.

=8-)
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Old 06-22-09, 10:39 PM
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erd

Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
1. Measure the rim such that you are aiming for the flat of the nipple...NOT THE TOP!!!

Once again...when measuring the rim...aim for the flat of the nipple...i.e., if the inner wall is 2mm thick...add 4mm to your inner diameter.
Stretch will result in spokes getting to or slightly past the nipple flat.
not everyone agrees on measuring to the top of the slot.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/s...asureHubAndRim
I prefer my spokes coming closer to the end, especially with aluminum nipples.
some calculators compensate for spoke stretch.

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Old 06-23-09, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
not everyone agrees on measuring to the top of the slot.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/s...asureHubAndRim
I prefer my spokes coming closer to the end, especially with aluminum nipples.
some calculators compensate for spoke stretch.

1. Most nipples allow protusion about 1mm past top of the nipple - and then STOP! So you are playing a unnecessarily risky game aiming for the top of the nipple. Off by 1mm in excess - bam! - you are right back to tearing down the wheel and re-cutting and re-threading the spokes and relacing the wheel again. Why create so much trouble for oneself?

You only need to penetrate the thickness of the inner rim wall...aiming for the flat exceeds that already.


2. Edco nipples from the mid-80's to the early 90's by design did not allow for threading more than two threads past the flat. Certain generic allloy nipple manus did this as well. So if you are aiming for the top of the nipple...welp...what's the point?


3. As another poster here has frequently mentioned...by aiming for the flat...you get +/- 1.0mm wiggle space in the event of error in your measuring of the rim - hub - etc..., i.e., pass "go", collect $200.


=8-)
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Old 06-23-09, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
1. Most nipples allow protusion about 1mm past top of the nipple - and then STOP!
So you are playing a unnecessarily risky game aiming for the top of the nipple.
Off by 1mm in excess - bam! - you are right back to tearing down the wheel and re-cutting and re-threading the spokes and relacing the wheel again.
Why create so much trouble for oneself?
no trouble for me.
still plenty of leeway, unless you are sloppy and careless with your measurements.

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Old 06-23-09, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
no trouble for me.
still plenty of leeway, unless you are sloppy and careless with your measurements.

If painting yourself in a corner is what turns you on in life, then more power to you!

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Old 06-23-09, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
If painting yourself in a corner is what turns you on in life, then more power to you!

no paint, no corners and no problems!

relax and enjoy life!
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Old 06-23-09, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
If painting yourself in a corner is what turns you on in life, then more power to you!

Note that the pics involve three different nipple lengths-12, 14, and 16 mm.
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Old 06-23-09, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AEO View Post
not only that, you can use fractional crosses for mixing hole counts between rim and wheel.
Having built a couple of wheels like that I'm rather sceptic to that function. As far as I can tell it gives you ONE new spoke length which is some sort of average between what it should be.
It's probably sufficient on a low-flange, low cross wheel with a big difference in hole counts, but for a high-flange, high-cross that just isn't going to cut it - particularly if you're only stepping down the hole count with 4 or 8.
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Old 06-23-09, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dabac View Post
Hi guys,

1) which calc to trust, DT or spocalc?
It depends. Spocalc is IMHO the preferred one for the mathematical calculations; its formulas are well known since the source code can be read by everyone, and they have been examined by many people. The DT Swiss calculator may be just as good, but it is a black box; its formulas can't be read or controlled by anybody outside DT Swiss.
Regarding the databases of hubs and rim ERD's, then both the Spocalc and DT Swiss spoke calculators are know to contain many errors. I would trust neither, but rely on my own measurements regarding both ERD and hub dimensions.


Originally Posted by dabac View Post
3) what about the spocalc extra 3 mm? The 1 mm discrepancy between my measured value of 543 ERD and the listed value of 542 mm is no biggie, and easily attributed to measurement error. But I got mine from using nipples in there, and spocalc wants to add a whopping 3 mm on top of that.
If my measurements were to be spot on, then spocalc's recommended length sure wouldn't give much room for tweaks.
Forget about those +3mm. The ERD info are likely faulty data, and the +3mm is likely to do with what Mavic called "nipple seat diameter", a measurements that even Mavic can't seem to explain the use of.

Trust your own measurements and put them into Spocalc. Spocalc gives ideal geometric spoke length values, so subtract 0.5 mm and /or subtract down to the nearest available spoke length.
The DT Swiss calculator also have a "corrected" spoke length value that does that.

--
Regards

Last edited by interested; 06-23-09 at 06:30 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 06-23-09, 07:02 AM
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You'll get slightly differing answers from different spoke calculators because there's no universal agreement on 2 key issues.

Some measure ERD (effective rim diameter)at the top of the nipple, while others including myself measure it at the point where the nipple meets the rim, so theres a difference of 3mm right there.

The other area of dissagreement is the ideal height of the spoke in the nipple on a finished wheel.
Structurally, the nipple should be considered a nut (the head) with an extension (the narrow section) for truing from outside the rim (towards the hub). Only the head provides any strength so spokes that do not fully engage 2mm into the head are too short, while any part of the spokes beyond the head is useless. The old school ideal length is for the spoke to end between the bottom of the slot and the top of the head.

Since no calculator tells you it's assumprions in advance, my suggestions is to decide which you plan to use, and build the front wheel first. That'll tell you if the calculations are off short or long, and by how much. From then on use the same correction factor with all future calculations (using the same calculator) and you'll be OK
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Old 06-23-09, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
You'll get slightly differing answers from different spoke calculators because there's no universal agreement on 2 key issues.

Some measure ERD (effective rim diameter)at the top of the nipple, while others including myself measure it at the point where the nipple meets the rim, so theres a difference of 3mm right there.
While I understand that for practical purposes some measure the ERD by first measuring the " nipple meets the rim distance" and then add something like 3 mm to actually reach the ERD, then I don't think that the "nipple meets the rim distance" in it self can be considered ERD for any definition of ERD I have seen. All ERD assumptions I have seen says that ERD=the point where you want your spokes to terminate. Put ERD into Jobst Brandts formula or Spocalc's or DT Swiss' or Roger Musson's spoke calculators, and they will give out the spoke length necessary so that the spokes will terminate in the ERD point.

There is one good reason (for some) to terminate the spokes so they are flush with the nipple slot and not the nipple top, and that is it makes it easier to disassemble the wheel with an electric drill bit.

I find Roger Musson's way of measuring ERD to be the easiest, fastest and most accurate method I know of:
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/measure.html
(His e-book on wheel building is also great)

Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
The other area of dissagreement is the ideal height of the spoke in the nipple on a finished wheel.
Structurally, the nipple should be considered a nut (the head) with an extension (the narrow section) for truing from outside the rim (towards the hub). Only the head provides any strength so spokes that do not fully engage 2mm into the head are too short, while any part of the spokes beyond the head is useless. The old school ideal length is for the spoke to end between the bottom of the slot and the top of the head.
I agree with everything you write above, except that there is anything to disagree about:-) IMHO, what you call old school is the only school, since that means there will be a +1 mm of thread margin before the spokes bottom out (on std. spokes and nipples). Some nipples, like DT Swiss 14 mm nipples, requires that the spokes terminate (ERD) 1 mm below the spoke slot to still have that 1 mm margin, and their 16 mm nipples requires that the spokes terminate 2 mm below that point. So if the spokes are 2 mm too short with std. 12 mm nipples, a 16 mm DT Swiss nipple will give optimal spoke length and thread engagement.
Of course, it is necessary to remember that trying to terminate the spokes so that they are flush with the nipple slot is an optimal target, but real life considerations like available spoke length may mean that the actual spokes terminates slightly above or below this optimal target, without sacrificing anything regarding wheel strength etc.


Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Since no calculator tells you it's assumprions in advance, my suggestions is to decide which you plan to use, and build the front wheel first. That'll tell you if the calculations are off short or long, and by how much. From then on use the same correction factor with all future calculations (using the same calculator) and you'll be OK
With Spocalc, it simply calculates the spoke length to terminate in the ERD point, so when measuring ERD with eg. Musson's method, you will always get the correct ideal geometric spoke length. It is pure 3D trigonometry, so one has to subtract a little from the raw numbers it gives to reflect that rims compress and spokes elongates under tension.
Whether where to terminate the spokes in regard to the nipple, then it doesn't matter for Spocalc, if one wants to terminate the spokes 2 mm below the nipple slot, then just change the ERD to reflect that.

In short, measure the ERD according to Musson's instructions, if using std. 12 mm nipples just put the ERD into Spocalc together with hub dimensions etc. Round down the Spocalc numbers to nearest available spoke length (and at least 0.5 mm for std. spokes). Do that and you are guaranteed to have good enough spoke length if your own measurements are correct.
To put it another way; Spocalc gives correct numbers when the data fed into it, like ERD and hub dimensions is correct.

--
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Old 06-23-09, 12:39 PM
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We're in basic agreement here. the key is to be consistent in defining terms like ERD, which as I said is shortand for effective rim diameter, and applying it to the calculation. Most rim makers who publish an ERD base it on the nipple seat, since they have no way of knowing what the builder will do afterwards, therefore I find it easier to add the engagement length of 2-3mm at the end.

As to ideal height, again there's no debate. Accepting that only the head is structural and applying the standard fastener design rule of thread engagement equal to the major diameter of the screw, you want 2mm of thread engagement into the head of the nipple. Most spokes and nipples from the same maker are designed so that the spoke can potrude beyond the top of the head by 1-2mm giving you a reasonable working margin.

And yes, if you're careful to make the spokes end at or below the slot, disassembly with a power screwdriver is easier. On the other hand, making that the max, and shooting for below risks coming up short of the ideal. As a practical matter, I'd much rather err on the side of more difficult disassembly, than structural weakness. But that's just me, I expect my wheels to last and I never plan for disassembly.
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Old 06-23-09, 02:35 PM
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Go with DT Swiss and round down.

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