Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Rear hub keeps breaking

Reply

Old 07-19-09, 07:16 AM
  #1  
67walkon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tequesta, Florida
Posts: 196

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Hybrid

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rear hub keeps breaking

Hey, this is one that my LBS hasn't figured out.

I ride a Specialized Roubaix carbon frame. Specialized upgraded the frame to the Pro line because of a minor warranty issue when I first got the bike, so it is a great frame.

The wheels came with the bike. They are 700 Mavik Open Pros.

In March or so, the Shimano 105 rear hub broke. A spoke tore through the metal where the spokes go into the flange around the hub--the hub metal tore, the spoke didn't break. I had about 12,000+ miles on everything.

I ordered an Ultegra hub, they got a Dura Ace, so we went with Dura Ace. This one lasted about 500 miles. Same issue. Shimano was puzzled and the LBS was puzzled. Shimano replaced it under warranty in March.

2000 miles later, it broke again this morning. It looks like metal failure on the hub itself--the metal separates at the leading edge of the hole where the spoke goes through and the spoke just pulls the metal up. This one caused the wheel to deflect enough that seized against the brake pad. If that had happened last month on BRAG, I could have been seriously hurt.

I weigh in the mid 190's and I'm not strong enough to generate the kind of torque I would think is necessary to cause this kind of damage.

Any suggestions? Should I try a new wheel set? Everything on the bike is well maintained, by the way, and lovingly cared for.

Thanks, John
67walkon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 07:24 AM
  #2  
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 31,338

Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
You've had THREE Shimano rear hubs fail at the spoke flange? By any chance are these being laced radially? Who is building the replacement wheels? It sounds like extremely high spoke tension but, usually the rims fail from that, not the hubs

Years ago, DT made a bunch of spokes with the J-bend excessively wide and these required a thin washer to protect most hub's spoke holes. DT corrected this pretty quickly but I suppose some of these may still be in the pipeline.
HillRider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 07:25 AM
  #3  
time bandit
¡Senor Member!
 
time bandit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Philly
Posts: 1,710
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Who is building the replacement wheels?
get a new builder. guy is out to kill you!

but seriously. he's tensioning the spokes too high, it seems.
time bandit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 07:41 AM
  #4  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,323

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Over tensioning on radial spokes? (If that's the case here...almost guarantees this condition...)

=8-)
mrrabbit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 07:45 AM
  #5  
Flanderflop
weirdo
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 98

Bikes: Viner Pro Carbon,Fat Chance Yo-Eddie, Specialized S-Works (epic), Voodoo Rada, Trek 830 setup SS for commuting.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have only had one flange break ever (Campy), but like someone said earlier it is much more common with a high tension to have the spoke or rim break. I suppose if the whole wheel is over tensioned rather than just one spoke as usually happens with old wheels that have been trued by rookies you might get more overall tension on the flange, but the whole thing is odd.

Get a tensiometer and figure out what tension is on your wheel vs. what is recomended for your hub and see how they match up.

Then look at other factor like which flange breaks (driveside rear?) and odd things like how are you transporting the bike and what are you using to clean the bike to see if there is anything abnormal that might cause stress.

Very strange all in all.
Flanderflop is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 07:58 AM
  #6  
67walkon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tequesta, Florida
Posts: 196

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Hybrid

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Always driveside rear. I'm not using anything unusual to clean the bike--diluted Simple Green or car detergent. When I transport it, which is rare, it goes in my back seat with the front wheel off.

I do recall having some issues truing that wheel a couple of years ago, but wouldn't they re-tension all the spokes when they put the new hubs on?

I'm not sure what radially lacing is, so I can't answer that question.

It is the same guy. He's a nice young kid who has been to the various schools for this stuff. Maybe it is time to find someone else or maybe just to get a new wheel set; I think the wheel sets on sale are aren't much more than the hub itself.

This apparently sounds weird to you guys too.
67walkon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 10:08 AM
  #7  
AEO
Senior Member
 
AEO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,258

Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
radial lacing is where the spokes go straight out from the hubs and don't cross any other spokes along the way to the rim.
it's unusual to have a radial lacing on the drive side for shimano rear hubs.

the usual pattern is 3 cross for 28, 32 and 36h wheels, where the spokes will cross each other 3 times.
how many spokes is the rear using?
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
AEO is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 01:15 PM
  #8  
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 31,338

Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Shimano expressly forbids radial lacing on their regular hubs and will not warranty them if it's done.

However, their prebuilt wheel sets are radial laced and the hubs are specifically designed for it. I have a set of WH-R560 wheels for which the front is laced 16-spokes radial and the rear is 20-spokes radial on the drive side (yes, the drive side) and 2X on the non-drive side.
HillRider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 02:56 PM
  #9  
67walkon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tequesta, Florida
Posts: 196

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Hybrid

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
28 spokes on the rear, 2x lacing.

I really don't want to spend the money on a new hub again, if this thing is out of warranty.

Most of the pre-build wheels on Nashbar and Performance seem to be 28 or even fewer spokes. Where is a good place to find a new wheelset, front and back, for between $500 and $1,000? Or is there a better way to go?

Of course, this happened after I missed a lot of riding the last several weeks, but fortunately when I don't have anything coming up except avoiding getting heavier and heavier!
67walkon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 03:24 PM
  #10  
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 29,162

Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1107 Post(s)
32 spoke Ultegra Open Pro wheelsets generally sell on internet sites for around $250.00. That's cheaper than you can buy the unassembled components.

I can't imagine what could have caused the kind of failure you have described for 3 different Shimano hubs. To attribute it to hub material failures would be lottery odds. Did all 3 failures involve the same rim? I can't imagine how a rim could cause such a failure but, assuming that's the only common component, I'd be for trying a different one.
Retro Grouch is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 03:44 PM
  #11  
67walkon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tequesta, Florida
Posts: 196

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Hybrid

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yep, same rim. Time for a new one, I think.
67walkon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 04:09 PM
  #12  
Panthers007
Great State of Varmint
 
Panthers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dante's Third Ring
Posts: 7,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
3 hubs failing? After Number 2. I would have packed up and split from that builder in a heartbeat. 3 is - until now - unheard of in my neck-o-the-woods. I have a wheel-set I built around Ultegra hubs. Works beautifully. Those things are tough - and as easy to service as my old Campy Records from 1982.

I'd take a look at Colorado Cyclist for very good wheels straight out of the box. I've heard many folk espousing their work. And their prices are quite good, too. And don't dismiss taking up wheel-building as a hobby and form of meditation.

Here's a link to Colorado:

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/
Panthers007 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 04:28 PM
  #13  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 20,116

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1578 Post(s)
Originally Posted by 67walkon View Post
28 spokes on the rear, 2x lacing.

I really don't want to spend the money on a new hub again, if this thing is out of warranty.

Most of the pre-build wheels on Nashbar and Performance seem to be 28 or even fewer spokes. Where is a good place to find a new wheelset, front and back, for between $500 and $1,000? Or is there a better way to go?

Of course, this happened after I missed a lot of riding the last several weeks, but fortunately when I don't have anything coming up except avoiding getting heavier and heavier!
For your next wheel, go with 32h or 36h and 3x lacing. I have wheels built that way that have been ridden hard for over 20 years and they're still fine.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 09:33 PM
  #14  
AEO
Senior Member
 
AEO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,258

Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
for the first one, was the wheel laced to it's notches from the previous lacing?
once the hub is laced, and the notches are formed from the spokes deforming the softer flanges, they become stress risers. If the hub is relaced to another rim, it should have the spokes in the same cross pattern (well, actually a the spokes should go out at a similar tangent angle, if it's laced to a smaller rim) and the spokes should not be forming new notches.
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
AEO is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-09, 11:54 PM
  #15  
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 20,954

Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 750 Post(s)
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
for the first one, was the wheel laced to it's notches from the previous lacing?
once the hub is laced, and the notches are formed from the spokes deforming the softer flanges, they become stress risers. If the hub is relaced to another rim, it should have the spokes in the same cross pattern (well, actually a the spokes should go out at a similar tangent angle, if it's laced to a smaller rim) and the spokes should not be forming new notches.
He's breaking hubs, so the replacement hub should not have any notches from previous lacing ..... assuming it's a new hub, and not a used hub.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.

FYI: http://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Homebrew01 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 07:24 AM
  #16  
67walkon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tequesta, Florida
Posts: 196

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Hybrid

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes, a new hub each time.

I checked with the company in Colorado. They seem very reasonable. I guess it is a new set of wheels.
67walkon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 07:50 AM
  #17  
jccaclimber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Terre Haute, Lafayette, or Indianapolis, IN, depending on the day
Posts: 1,919

Bikes: n, I would like n+1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm a bit puzzled by this, and am rather curious what sort of spoke tension you have. I've never had problems with Shimano hub flanges.
jccaclimber is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 08:41 AM
  #18  
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 31,338

Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Originally Posted by jccaclimber View Post
I'm a bit puzzled by this, and am rather curious what sort of spoke tension you have. I've never had problems with Shimano hub flanges.
That's what puzzles most of us. 0 for 3 is unheard of.
HillRider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 08:49 AM
  #19  
AEO
Senior Member
 
AEO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
Posts: 12,258

Bikes: Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
string of bad luck or should I worry about the 28h shimano rear I have yet to lace up?
__________________
Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
AEO is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 09:33 AM
  #20  
Panthers007
Great State of Varmint
 
Panthers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dante's Third Ring
Posts: 7,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
string of bad luck or should I worry about the 28h shimano rear I have yet to lace up?
I don't think you need to be concerned about your 28 hub. If this were a Shimano-problem, no doubt we'd be flooded with similar stories by now.
Panthers007 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 01:16 PM
  #21  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,323

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Drive side rear should be around 110 kgf - pushing 115 kgf ro 120 kgf is okay with some rims.

But once you get past 120 kgf - things start popping up depending upon the rims and hubs...hole cracks, rim warping upon tire inflation...and on rare occasions...spokes ripping out of the flange holes.

My guess is the previous builder was tensioning those drive side spokes up in the 130 kgf + range...

=8-)
mrrabbit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 02:25 PM
  #22  
67walkon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tequesta, Florida
Posts: 196

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Hybrid

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Harvey, or mrrabbit if you prefer, the guy at the LBS says he used a tension meter and was well within recommended tolerances. I'm going to ask what tension he thinks is recommended.

After reading everything I can find, including here and another bike site, I suspect it is a combination of issues. That wheel was way out of true a year or two ago--I can't remember the cause, but I think I had a fairly high speed blow out, but I didn't crash or anything. I used a spoke wrench on it and had a devil of a time getting it true. This was long before the 1st hub failed. However, I'm wondering if the rim is either warped or has some issue I can't see that causes the forces to be distributed unequally to the hub. That, plus 28 spokes, plus almost 200 pounds plus maybe some over tensioning to get the rim trued might combine to cause the problem.

In any event, I'm getting a new wheelset with 36 spokes and 3x lacing. My buddy at the LBS has never seen this issue before and he tells me he uses a tension meter when he rebuilds (ie, installs a new hub), so I'm going to give them another chance, but with brand new everything. If this one fails, I think I'll just give up and go buy a new bike!
67walkon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 04:32 PM
  #23  
Garthr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: where
Posts: 1,288

Bikes: Franklin Frames Custom, Rivendell Bombadil

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by 67walkon View Post
In any event, I'm getting a new wheelset with 36 spokes and 3x lacing. My buddy at the LBS has never seen this issue before and he tells me he uses a tension meter when he rebuilds (ie, installs a new hub), so I'm going to give them another chance, but with brand new everything. If this one fails, I think I'll just give up and go buy a new bike!

What good would a new bike do you? . . it has wheels too that need to built by some body or some thing.

Your not knowing what radial lacing is tells us you don't really know what you're buying, or from who. Not a knock , just being honest. You would benefit greatly from a professional wheelbuilder, not a guy at a LBS who went to school and "knows what he's doing"

The proof is in 3 broken hubs. I guarantee you, if you use a Pro builder(someone who just builds wheels), you won't have such problems. Buy hey, it's only money! Keep using the guy at the LBS and maybe he'll get it right? . . I don't think so. I admire the loyalty, but c'mon . . . 3 broken wheels? Enough!
Garthr is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 04:47 PM
  #24  
HillRider 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 31,338

Bikes: '''96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '12 Surly Pacer, All are 3x8,9 or 10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Originally Posted by 67walkon View Post
That wheel was way out of true a year or two ago--I can't remember the cause, but I think I had a fairly high speed blow out, but I didn't crash or anything. I used a spoke wrench on it and had a devil of a time getting it true. This was long before the 1st hub failed. However, I'm wondering if the rim is either warped or has some issue I can't see that causes the forces to be distributed unequally to the hub.
You have been reusing that obviously damaged rim on all three hubs? I believe we now have an explanation for your problems. If the rim was warped by the accident and you had to force it into true, you obviously had a major mal-distribution of spoke tensions. How on earth did your shop guy agree to reuse that rim?
HillRider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-09, 05:25 PM
  #25  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Village, New York City
Posts: 36,723

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1973 Raleigh Twenty, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5156 Post(s)
This is a weird story. Are you sure the spokes on both sides cross?
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service