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Ok, so cantilever brakes suck.

Old 01-17-10, 12:32 PM
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I think this should count as a troll attempt.

All I'm going to add is this; I've managed to send people over the handlebars, using stock Magna cantilever brakes (with kool-stop pads). Never been able to do it with the V-brakes.
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Old 01-17-10, 12:59 PM
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I think this should count as a troll attempt.
What are you basing that on exactly? Or were you referring to your own post and wanted to let us know that you were new to trolling and may need tips?

Actually, I was really just venting frustration but it has passed now...I've got brakes set up and am happy with them .

I think the horse is dead - I'll move on.
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Old 01-17-10, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene2308
What are you basing that on exactly? Or were you referring to your own post and wanted to let us know that you were new to trolling and may need tips?

Actually, I was really just venting frustration but it has passed now...I've got brakes set up and am happy with them .

I think the horse is dead - I'll move on.
The important thing is that you're happy with your brakes now. I'd just suggest you keep an open mind on cantis and not let your specific experience with this specific setup lead you to make a generalized judgement on cantis. You can't ignore so many responses and posts from people who have canti setups that work just fine. I could have a brake setup that involved an iron bar jammed between the spokes. It might "stop me on a dime", but pure power isn't what I'm after. Someone with weak hands regularly descending a mountain on a heavy bike might want a different brake setup versus a strong-handed commuter on a light bike with fenders and a rear rack on flat roads.
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Old 01-17-10, 07:34 PM
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Can we have more information on this setup?

Originally Posted by zzyzx_xyzzy
this is the best brake setup i have ever had. road lever compatible, good pad clearance, gives on demand stoppies at speed with panniers on the back.

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Old 01-17-10, 08:55 PM
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Just based on using my cantis (oryx) after riding my MTB w/ BB7's or even my old (15 year old) roadie - cantis are definitely weaker. My Oryx's can't even compare to my MTB BB7's (and I know they aren't supposed to be comparable, just sayin).
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Old 01-18-10, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan
Can we have more information on this setup?
The bracket looking thing is an old seat-bolt-mount cable hanger



with the bolt/washer from an old straddle hanger.



NB. converting a cantilever to a direct pull this way would ordinarily increase the mechanical advantage too much for the levers. By using the wide profile CR720 canti arms, the cable makes an acute angle with the arm reducing the MA to the right range again. It also makes it so that the mechanical advantage rises through the stroke, improving power and pad clearance.

The straddle cable goes over a roller mounted at the fork crown. It's a sliding door roller from the hardware store.

The effect is like a mini-V but with even smoother cable routing and more tire/mud clearance. It also eliminates steertube flex from the system, which can cause shuddering on cantilever systems esp. if you are large and have the cable hanger at the top a big long headtube.

The whole setup is similar in spirit to the old Cannondale "force 40" or Suntour "Power hanger" widgets from the early '90s, but those systems suffered from having too high a mechanical advantage (i.e. hardly any pad clearance and mushy feel) and not pulling both sides equally (pads wore unevenly, impossible to keep centered). Using a roller instead of a cam at the fork crown ensures both sides pull equally, and the wide profile arm in this configuration scales back the mechanical advantage.

Last edited by zzyzx_xyzzy; 01-18-10 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 01-18-10, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gene2308
No, man. I thought I made it clear that I used a drop bar (and hence road levers) but I used shimano 105 road levers on the drop bar for the cantilevers. I use linear pull mountain levers on a flat bar for my v-brake. This is not a cable pull issue, it's a cantilevers are weaker than v-brakes issue.
DO NOT confuse clamping-force with braking-force. Just because you can generate the same braking-force with 1-finger on V-brakes compared to 2-fingers on canties, doesn't mean that you'll stop faster. The maximum-deceleration rate will still be limited by the tyre's friction on the ground. With either set-up, you'll still be able to generate enough clamping-force to lock up the rear tyre or send the rider over the bars with the front. With either type of brakes, under maximum-braking, you'll end up with exactly the same braking-distances. Just that you'll need to squeeze the cantis a little harder that's all.
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Old 01-18-10, 04:08 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by zzyzx_xyzzy
The bracket looking thing is an old seat-bolt-mount cable hanger



with the bolt/washer from an old straddle hanger.



NB. converting a cantilever to a direct pull this way would ordinarily increase the mechanical advantage too much for the levers. By using the wide profile CR720 canti arms, the cable makes an acute angle with the arm reducing the MA to the right range again. It also makes it so that the mechanical advantage rises through the stroke, improving power and pad clearance.

The straddle cable goes over a roller mounted at the fork crown. It's a sliding door roller from the hardware store.

The effect is like a mini-V but with even smoother cable routing and more tire/mud clearance. It also eliminates steertube flex from the system, which can cause shuddering on cantilever systems esp. if you are large and have the cable hanger at the top a big long headtube.

The whole setup is similar in spirit to the old Cannondale "force 40" or Suntour "Power hanger" widgets from the early '90s, but those systems suffered from having too high a mechanical advantage (i.e. hardly any pad clearance and mushy feel) and not pulling both sides equally (pads wore unevenly, impossible to keep centered). Using a roller instead of a cam at the fork crown ensures both sides pull equally, and the wide profile arm in this configuration scales back the mechanical advantage.
How about posting some more pics with better lighting? The set up sounds great but my old eyes just can't make out all the detail. Sounds ingenious to me.
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Old 01-18-10, 09:57 AM
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Um, maybe I'm an idiot, but aren't V-brakes just another form of cantilever brake? They just have a different cable arrangement. If you set them both up for a certain amount of pad movement for a given amount of lever movement, then they both should have *exactly* the same "stopping power".
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Old 01-18-10, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cycle_maven
Um, maybe I'm an idiot, but aren't V-brakes just another form of cantilever brake? They just have a different cable arrangement. If you set them both up for a certain amount of pad movement for a given amount of lever movement, then they both should have *exactly* the same "stopping power".
Vees are a form of anti, yes. But they're not really tuneable. They come set up for about 2x standard canti mechanical advantage. And are therefore paired with levers with half the mechanical advantage - the levers have to be this way as otherwise the pull would be too long to be practical.

Cantis ARE a pain to adjust for most people. Not because adjustment is hard, but because there isn't a decent guide on the net - unless you use the Wayback Machine to get Bontrager's article. But that has lost its pictures. The Brown guide is correct but very hard to follow.

Mini-Vees probably would suit most people better - although I don't think I've ever been impressed by the modulation on a v-brake.
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Old 01-18-10, 01:54 PM
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The no name V-brakes on my sons $250 Diamondback are better than the fancy brand cantis that came on my Trek 930,950's. Easier to adjust and better stopping power.
Still cantis were/are worlds better than the best sidepull Campagonolo brakes vintage late 1970. Brakes were barely more than a suggestion back then.

Yes, canti brakes are not as good as V-brakes(and a pita to adjust), but they are OK if that is what you have on the bike. They stop pretty well, but not V-brake well, or disc well.

I took 15 years off from riding(1985-2000)-when I returned the brakes were easily the biggest difference. The 27 speed gearing was "who cares" same with index shifting, carbon fiber same/same, but the brakes- were many, many time better than the late 70's vintage stuff I used. The move back to sensibly wide tires and more upright riding position was good also(of course,I'm oldish.

Last edited by phoebeisis; 01-18-10 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 01-18-10, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BetweenRides
I bought a Kona Jake the Snake last summer. It came with cantis. I use the bike for trail/night riding, plus shorter group rides with a spare set of road wheels. Love the bike but the braking was so poor it was almost dangerous. I replaced the brakes this fall with Deore V brakes and threw on some travel agents for good measure. Stops on a dime, on par with my regular road bike.
Yup. I test rode a Kona Jake with Avid 4 cantis. Horrible braking performance compared to linear pull let alone disc brakes. Just so it wasn't that particular bike, I took a different Jake out. Same deal. It just doesn't illicit confident stopping performance.

BTW, road bikes do come with linear dual pivot brakes which are way better than cantis. I know because it was the first thing I check when shopping for a roadie. I can only presume cantis still exist for some bikes especially CX is that mud don't gather on it as much as other brakes. However disc brakes pretty nullify that reason but weighs heavier.
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Old 01-18-10, 05:57 PM
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I still maintain (as do people who have ever ridden a properly set up cantilever brake) that they stop just as well as any other brake out there, provided you have it set up right. I have never had a cantilever brake that can't be made to stop on a dime, with enough adjustment (well, one, but it was an old Mafac, and I still believe if i had several more years, I could get even that adjusted well).

The fact that they take a lot of effort to adjust is definitely a strike against them, and the fact that so many bikes come stock with brakes that do not work to the best of their capacity only enhances their reputation.

truthfully, I haven't met a half decent brake that can't be made to skid a tire with some coaxing. As I've said, even a crappy Magna brake can do a half decent job, braking power is most often limited by tire traction more than anything else.
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Old 01-18-10, 06:48 PM
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Discs.

Not just for performance, but also for not having to watch wet road grit and dirt grind your rims into aluminum paste. When conditions get sketchy, the braking performance of a disc brake is simply superior to a rim brake.

I was reminded of this the last time I took my rim brakes out on a wet, nasty day, and the light in front of me turned red, with the cross traffic starting to move.
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Old 01-18-10, 06:56 PM
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I agree with you 90%, fuzz2050. I have a bike with Campy Record sidepulls. I can stop very well with them, but it requires a lot of force with my hand. I understand that's a deal breaker for some people, and I respect that. But it is not true that using them is like a "suggestion" as phoebeisis says. phoebeisis, I think you are confusing hand effort with stopping power.

The 10% where I disagree with you, fuzz, is that some brakes don't stop me even with lots of effort. I just replaced my ancient Weinmann centerpulls with ancient Mafac centerpulls. Stopping power and modulability have both improved. The Weinmanns were just barely adequate. The Mafacs give me new confidence to go at high speeds with small clearances.

I also agree that cantilevers are hard to set up. I recently built a bike with them. The brakes work terrifically, and I wasn't as analytical as all these articles are. I suspect that my habit for setting them up is intuitively right. In other words, I know how to do it without being able to articulate it. I used cheapo Shimano cantilevers with the stock Shimano pads. The performance is extremely satisfying.
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Old 02-01-10, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fuzz2050
I think this should count as a troll attempt.

All I'm going to add is this; I've managed to send people over the handlebars, using stock Magna cantilever brakes (with kool-stop pads).
Never been able to do it with the V-brakes.
I endoed hardcore this past summer. Damned bunny. I asked in the cyclocross forum, and should have come here. I have a cross bike on the way, and after trying out the cantis, will likely try to install (with Travel Agents, from what I hear) linears. They are SOLID on my flat bar roadie, and I am reading far too much about this outdated technology being fickle, difficult, and not at all as powerful as linears.
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Old 02-01-10, 11:10 PM
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Cantis look interesting and there's a certain vintage nostalgia about them, so I don't want to knock them. I almost went with them on my CX setup, but thought better.
Cantis are difficult to setup and keep adjusted correctly, yes I know, I suck as a bike mechanic. It's easier to just give up on them, but if you have a nice pair on an old bike then maybe stick with them.
There is NO reason, however, to go out and buy a cantilever brake. The parallel push of a Shimano XT or XTR simply destroys Cantis in feel and power. This is also the easiest brake to set up on the face of the planet, never goes out of adjustment and starts rubbing randomly like sidepulls and cantis do. This was the most annoying thing about cantis and side pulls. You nudge them slightly pulling them out of the car or at the bike rack and they're off rubbing. Maybe you guys would like to debate that such and such properly setup Canti works well or has good stopping power, but all in all good V brakes are better.

Oh, and for drop bars, Tekro 520 levers are $20 on ebay and give a nice linear pull. I'll be welding studs on the rear soon so I can get ride of that annoying side pull.
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Old 02-01-10, 11:35 PM
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One of these days, I'll make and post a video on how to center sidepull brakes. When you do it properly, by equalizing the spring tension, you won't need to do it again for a long time. I've looked, and I don't find such a video.

Single pivot sidepull brakes are the only brake that doesn't require readjustment of the pad placement after the pad wears. Once you do it right, it stays right.
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Old 02-02-10, 10:21 AM
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Oryx with separate straddle cable and yoke on the centre cable is real easy to set up for all the power you want. Front fender will stop straddle cable dropping onto tire.
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Old 02-02-10, 11:14 AM
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I suppose because I grew up with cantis, I've never understood the difficulties that people have with adjusting them properly.
I like my CR720s. Unlike a sidepull, I don't ever worry about the tire/fender clearance. With a V-brake, I wouldn't be able to use my VO Randonneur rack and Berthoud frontbag because the placement of the rack & bag would interfere with the tops of the brake arms and the cable routing.
Are they the strongest brakes out there? Maybe not.
Do they stop my fat arse coming down a 15% grade with a 45mph 4-lane crossing at the bottom? Yeah.
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Old 02-02-10, 11:34 AM
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My main gripe is with cantis with "smooth" posts (well, they're often knurled in some way..). Having all axles of adjustment loose at once tended to make me wish for a 3rd hand. Not that I know if I'd been able to get those fingers as well in close enough to be useful though....
If I'd had cantis with threaded posts I don't think I'd been that eager to switch to Vs. Never had an issue with the braking power as such, apart from during foul weather rides when my hands got cold enough to begin to lose strength.
Come to think of it, while I ran a max power with really low straddle cable setup, I was a bit worried about the main cable coming apart and the straddle cable hooking onto the tire. But that fear was manageable with frequent inspections
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Old 02-02-10, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dabac
My main gripe is with cantis with "smooth" posts (well, they're often knurled in some way..). Having all axles of adjustment loose at once tended to make me wish for a 3rd hand. Not that I know if I'd been able to get those fingers as well in close enough to be useful though....
If I'd had cantis with threaded posts I don't think I'd been that eager to switch to Vs. Never had an issue with the braking power as such, apart from during foul weather rides when my hands got cold enough to begin to lose strength.
Even the threaded post shoes are a PiTA to adjust. The main benefit from swapping the Oryx to the CR720 was going from threaded post to cartridge pads. I set the pad holders once and haven't needed to adjust them since. Pad insert are cheap as heck ($6-ish bucks) so I don't mind that I replace them more often instead of readjusting things to get the "full lifespan" out of them. I'll deal with buying 3 pairs a year; the $36.00 isn't going to bankrupt me.
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Old 02-14-10, 03:27 PM
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Ok, revisited: I'm missing my drop bar and am going to try to set up the oryx once again. I tested a set of these guys on a bike built by someone much better than me at adjusting canti's, and was surprised at their power.

Problem identified? Me.

I'm going to try to space the pads (bought new v-brake pads) close to the rims, such that the brake arms will be more vertical when the pads are engaged than for my first set-up. After reading about low-profile cantilever set-up it seems like this is pretty important for power....actually, several of you said this but I was too angry and ignorant to listen .

Anyone have a pic of their oryx set up correctly - both at rest and engaged?

I apologize for my rant: I'll keep an open mind about this and get it right.
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Old 02-14-10, 05:33 PM
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I use them and they work. They take a little more hand pressure that dual pivots, but they stop the bike even with a load.
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Old 02-14-10, 07:23 PM
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If you do want V brakes they can be used on drops. Just need a set of V brake levers. Or if you are using STI dual controls you can use Tektro RX 5 Mini-Vs or something similar.
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