Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Cottered cranks on My Lovely Basso time trial +few questions -help me finish my Build

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Cottered cranks on My Lovely Basso time trial +few questions -help me finish my Build

Old 02-05-10, 09:20 AM
  #1  
urdd2me
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cottered cranks on My Lovely Basso time trial +few questions -help me finish my Build

Hey

I have a few problems /issues i need to address before finishing my build. I know i could find the answers if i looked very very hard but then again what use would this forum and all the bike nerds be.
I already looked hard-ish, and my findings are confusing to say the least.

Got a lovely lo-pro time trial basso frame recently from a guy in New York built up into a hipsterish Fixie. Frame is lovely italian made piece of craftsmanship with panthographing on seatstays, chromed lugs, rear brake bridge and forks and chromed all over under the paintjob.



I am trying to give it more dapper -ish/ classic smart mature look that would go with my brouges and victorian sofa - not kidding here as i keep the bike on a pedestal behind a sofa.

Issues:
no. 1. Cranks.
I do not like the look of the cranks it has on it and on top of that the screws which attach it to a chainring are loose which calls for an accident.
I want to change it to a lovely Cotter crank which i have left over from an old BSA steel frame (pic below) I am aware that it's outdated technology prone to issues but love the classic look and the fact that the 2 chaingings are almost identical size which gives it an unique look once the chain is installed on smaller ring.


There are problems involved.
-i am worried about being able to achieve good chainline (frame has 120 mm rear spacing)
-frame has italian threaded bottom bracket.
How do i know what kind of bottom bracket i need eg: spindle lenght, cup diameter and all the other lenghts i should be aware of?!

In this case SIZE DOES MATTER

I found this online https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-U...36-mm-6861.htm - seems like a good idea since it has sealed bearings which would eliminate the need to worry about re greasing it and worrying about salt getting in but how do i know if it will fit?
Also found this https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_2082wt_1099
If neither wont fit and i need to find something unsealed will i be able to put a plastic sleeve in?

no. 2. Paintjob

I do not like the yellow color on the frame and since a lot of it chipped off and frame is chromed underneath i want to strip it of. I do not want to damage chrome. Anyone has experience with this?

no. 3 Saddlebag

I bought a nice vintage leather Selle Italia with rectangular copper rivets, and a saddle bag made by electra. Unfortunately saddle does not have holes for saddle straps like brooks saddles. Also i want to tan the leather on the saddle bag black. I tried marker pen but it won't look even. Spray-paint maybe??
Any ideas how can i attach it (without overstretching the straps) to make it look neat?



Looking forward to your thoughts and Thank you in advance for your advice.
Ride strong.

edit:

Thanks for all your critique. I understand my post sounds like heresy to some.
I honestly expected more "bashing" and sarcasm. Beside few your comments have been constructive. and helpful.

In answer to some of the questions:
To clarify some misunderstanding: Bike is being used extensively, daily, it wont spend it's life behind a sofa, as some piece of furniture/decoration. It will only be there when i am not using it, i do want to proudly present it however.

I already rode the bike for a good month and love the position, i know a lot of people find it uncomfortable to ride that low, but i always rode my bikes like that, even 2 hour+ rides. I have very very flexible back, and prefer to be very bent over(please no comments). I find it more aerodynamic and the weight of my bags (sometimes 12kg) stays on my back rather than pulling down on my shoulders through straps.

Some consider the idea of putiing a saddle bag on a lo pro bike crazy. Below pictures should show it is possible to achieve classic clean look even on a lo pro or track frame. I am aiming for similar look.

Paint:
I would have just painted the original yellow (which i hate) black to match the rest if it was possible. Maybe it is not very visible on the photos but the paintwork has chips the size of a fingernail all over (some bigger). The chrome underneeth is smooth and polished, identical to that on the lugs, maybe that was the reason paint chipped off so easily in the first place. It is in great condition too.

Crank that is on now is very worn and needs replacing.
The cottered crank i have is a left over from my bsa bike - i had it for over a year ( 10 miles daily) and never had any issues with it (mayby i was just lucky?).
I volunteer for a charity which sends unwanted bikes to africa and have access to all sorts of tools.
I would love to be able to use it since it will only cost me a few bucks to get right kind of spindle ( if i knew which lenght i need)
I guess i should seriously consider shelling out on a new crank though.


Front is indeed 650, rear had white tyre put up by previous owner - it gives effect of optical illusion making it difficult to tell the wheels are diffrent sizes.

Last edited by urdd2me; 02-07-10 at 01:38 AM. Reason: clarification
urdd2me is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 11:31 AM
  #2  
waldowales
Old Fogy
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Murray, Utah
Posts: 1,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I wonder how shiny the chrome under the paint is. Often it is not polished to the same degree as the chrome which shows.
Any auto body supply has a special flexible spray paint for vinyl which lasts quite well on leather. I've sprayed old saddles with it and been pleased with the results. Quite expensive, but worth it.
I've seen clamps advertised to go on the saddle rails and hold a bag. Try an online search.
waldowales is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 11:47 AM
  #3  
DMF 
Elitist Troglodyte
 
DMF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 6,924

Bikes: 03 Raleigh Professional (steel)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
IMO the paint job is the only thing you don't need to change.
__________________
Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

- Will Rogers
DMF is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 12:09 PM
  #4  
fuzz2050
Real Men Ride Ordinaries
 
fuzz2050's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,723
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
unless the paint is in really bad shape, keep it. It's one of those irreversible things that you should avoid if at all possible.

If the chainring bolts are loose, then tighten them. I agree with you that the crank looks kinda out of place on that bike, but going to a cottered will give you more issues than (I think) it's worth. I'd buy a nice vintage Campy crankset, and install chainrings you like.

And the saddlebag on a TT bike is a little odd, but that's just taste
fuzz2050 is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 03:31 PM
  #5  
TurbineBlade
Kid A
 
TurbineBlade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 1,778
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
going to a cottered will give you more issues than (I think) it's worth.
+1

Cottered cranks suck - period. I would just look for some cranks that have a chromish, old-school appearance.
TurbineBlade is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 04:54 PM
  #6  
bigvegan
Senior Member
 
bigvegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cottered cranks are the devil. Do not waste your time with them. You'll need a new bottom bracket, and they're a royal pain in the ass to work on (especially if you don't have a cotter pin extracting tool).

As you pointed out, they're not period for that bike. It'd be like putting wooden model T rims on a 1980s Ferrari. If you want a classic look, ask the C&V forum if anyone has a vintage track crank for sale. Failing that, find a period-correct road crank and move the big chainring to the inside. Or just tighten the chainring bolts (get shorter ones if you need them) on your existing cranks and call it a day.
If you do buy a new crank, get the spindle length appropriate for the crank that you purchase.

Leave the paint alone.

I can't help you with the saddlebag, except to recommend you carry a messenger bag / backpack and save that bag for the classic upright fendered townie you'll be building once you get uncomfortable riding around town on a time trial bike. That bike will match your lifestyle more effectively, and you can bring your saddle / saddle bags to the shoe and purse repair stand and have them died to match the color of your brogues.
bigvegan is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 05:34 PM
  #7  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,620

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1569 Post(s)
Liked 1,822 Times in 1,051 Posts
Put a Campagnolo C-Record or Suntour Superbe Pro crankset on it.

And don't strip it, or else the gods will descend upon you and banish you to eternal bicycle hell.

-Kurt

P.S.: Double rings on a fixie look ridiculous.
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 05:52 PM
  #8  
HillRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 32,903

Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 564 Times in 417 Posts
Originally Posted by waldowales View Post
I wonder how shiny the chrome under the paint is. Often it is not polished to the same degree as the chrome which shows.
Actually, chrome intended to go under paint is left intentionally rough and even etched to give the paint a "tooth" to cling to. Stripping the paint is likely to expose rough looking, non-shiny chrome that can't be made to look like the shiny exposed chrome.
HillRider is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 07:06 PM
  #9  
cnnrmccloskey
Senior Member
 
cnnrmccloskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 745

Bikes: '82 Giante super challange, 70 Gitane Tour de France, GT Gutterball

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by urdd2me View Post
Hey

I have a few problems /issues i need to address before finishing my build. I know i could find the answers if i looked very very hard but then again what use would this forum and all the bike nerds be.
I already looked hard-ish, and my findings are confusing to say the least.

Got a lovely lo-pro time trial basso frame recently from a guy in New York built up into a hipsterish Fixie. Frame is lovely italian made piece of craftsmanship with panthographing on seatstays, chromed lugs, rear brake bridge and forks and chromed all over under the paintjob.



I am trying to give it more dapper -ish/ classic smart mature look that would go with my brouges and victorian sofa - not kidding here as i keep the bike on a pedestal behind a sofa.

Issues:
no. 1. Cranks.
I do not like the look of the cranks it has on it and on top of that the screws which attach it to a chainring are loose which calls for an accident.
I want to change it to a lovely Cotter crank which i have left over from an old BSA steel frame (pic below) I am aware that it's outdated technology prone to issues but love the classic look and the fact that the 2 chaingings are almost identical size which gives it an unique look once the chain is installed on smaller ring.


There are problems involved.
-i am worried about being able to achieve good chainline (frame has 120 mm rear spacing)
-frame has italian threaded bottom bracket.
How do i know what kind of bottom bracket i need eg: spindle lenght, cup diameter and all the other lenghts i should be aware of?!

In this case SIZE DOES MATTER

I found this online https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-U...36-mm-6861.htm - seems like a good idea since it has sealed bearings which would eliminate the need to worry about re greasing it and worrying about salt getting in but how do i know if it will fit?
Also found this https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_2082wt_1099
If neither wont fit and i need to find something unsealed will i be able to put a plastic sleeve in?

no. 2. Paintjob

I do not like the yellow color on the frame and since a lot of it chipped off and frame is chromed underneath i want to strip it of. I do not want to damage chrome. Anyone has experience with this?

no. 3 Saddlebag

I bought a nice vintage leather Selle Italia with rectangular copper rivets, and a saddle bag made by electra. Unfortunately saddle does not have holes for saddle straps like brooks saddles. Also i want to tan the leather on the saddle bag black. I tried marker pen but it won't look even. Spray-paint maybe??
Any ideas how can i attach it (without overstretching the straps) to make it look neat?



Looking forward to your thoughts and Thank you in advance for your advice.
Ride strong.
Just so were clear as long as that bike is being riden around as a commuter it will be a "hipsterish Fixie"
Even more so if you choose to put coitered cranks on, yes the current crank is ugly, but not as ugly as a coitered crank
cnnrmccloskey is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 07:39 PM
  #10  
Chop61
Senior Member
 
Chop61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 238

Bikes: Pinarello Road, Surly LHT, Dolan Track, Fuji Supreme, Guru Ti Tri, Bamboo

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
These might be the bag loops you're looking for https://www.velo-orange.com/vivabagloops.html
That setup hurts just looking at it.
Chop61 is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 07:43 PM
  #11  
I_bRAD
Call me The Breeze
 
I_bRAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cooper Ontario
Posts: 3,701

Bikes: 2004 Litespeed Siena, 1996 Litespeed Obed, 1992 Miele (unknown model), 1982 Meile Uno LS.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Instead of the saddlebag, perhaps you might like a basket. A nice chrome one would go with the frame, and you could put a bag of chips in it for when you get hungry sitting on the couch.
I_bRAD is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 08:39 PM
  #12  
freako
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 497
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That's one wild looking bike; it's amazing that I remember seeing one on E-Bay back in Nov that only sold for $126-frame, fork and seat only, but still I thought that was way too cheap of a price. I really thought it would go for several thousand since they are a bit rare and artsy on top of it.
freako is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 09:48 PM
  #13  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,620

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1569 Post(s)
Liked 1,822 Times in 1,051 Posts
Originally Posted by freako View Post
I really thought it would go for several thousand since they are a bit rare and artsy on top of it.
Not this one.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 02-05-10, 10:42 PM
  #14  
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,353

Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by I_bRAD View Post
Instead of the saddlebag, perhaps you might like a basket. A nice chrome one would go with the frame, and you could put a bag of chips in it for when you get hungry sitting on the couch.
Rofl, and people call *me* mean.
operator is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 12:20 PM
  #15  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 22,846

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2687 Post(s)
Liked 1,396 Times in 867 Posts
Originally Posted by Gene2308 View Post
+1

Cottered cranks suck - period. I would just look for some cranks that have a chromish, old-school appearance.
Indeed. Something like this would be much nicer on many levels:
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:06 PM
  #16  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 39,986

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 486 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6907 Post(s)
Liked 1,563 Times in 989 Posts
Yeah, that's a handsome cottered crank, but it won't be fun to install or remove. My LBS owner says they don't make cotter pins as well as they used to. In other words, the metal is softer than it used to be. That adds to the trouble considerably.

I love old bikes, but I don't love cottered cranks. Square taper BB axles were a godsend when they became common.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:07 PM
  #17  
cia dog
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 252

Bikes: 87 Miyata 512

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Good god, I never seen a bike designed like that before. Why is this bike not worth much? It seems like it should be in a museum.
cia dog is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:21 PM
  #18  
cnnrmccloskey
Senior Member
 
cnnrmccloskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 745

Bikes: '82 Giante super challange, 70 Gitane Tour de France, GT Gutterball

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cia dog View Post
Good god, I never seen a bike designed like that before. Why is this bike not worth much? It seems like it should be in a museum.
Whos said its not worth much?
Its just not worth much as a fixie commuter
I could even see it as a pursuit conversion but a commuter??
cnnrmccloskey is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:24 PM
  #19  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 39,986

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 486 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6907 Post(s)
Liked 1,563 Times in 989 Posts
Hey, some commute in Porsches. Why not?
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:46 PM
  #20  
cnnrmccloskey
Senior Member
 
cnnrmccloskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 745

Bikes: '82 Giante super challange, 70 Gitane Tour de France, GT Gutterball

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
and some people put spoilers on their 1992 Geo Metro, doesn't mean its right
cnnrmccloskey is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:54 PM
  #21  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 39,986

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 486 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6907 Post(s)
Liked 1,563 Times in 989 Posts
Ain't no wrong or right in matters of taste.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:56 PM
  #22  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,620

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1569 Post(s)
Liked 1,822 Times in 1,051 Posts
Originally Posted by cia dog View Post
Good god, I never seen a bike designed like that before. Why is this bike not worth much? It seems like it should be in a museum.
Pursuit bike.
Paint is in particularly poor shape, and the original components are not present (used to be a geared bike, you know).
Pursuit bikes may not be as common as road machines, but they're not impossible to find, and they generally aren't worthy of museum consideration (not unless a famous racer rode it to victory or near-victory).

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 01:57 PM
  #23  
cnnrmccloskey
Senior Member
 
cnnrmccloskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 745

Bikes: '82 Giante super challange, 70 Gitane Tour de France, GT Gutterball

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

I would have to disagree but to each his own
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
world%27s+greatest+trek.jpg (23.9 KB, 38 views)
cnnrmccloskey is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 02:00 PM
  #24  
LarDasse74
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Grid Reference, SK
Posts: 3,768

Bikes: I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Re: Cottered cranks

You can do whatever you want to your bike - it is YOUR bike.

But don't expect much help from the bike maintenance curmudgeons here if you want to put cottered cranks on a fancy Italian racing bike. That is a very terrible idea.

Re: Chrome

The chrome under the paint is likely not a satisfactory finish. Maybe call around to people who can re-chrome the frame, then strip it and have it re-done... see if any aito body or auto performance shops can give you advice or suggest a place that can do the work.

Re: Chainline

It is likely that you can achieve perfect chainline on one of the chainrings on a double, but never on both. Never. It will work fine with one chainring and crap on the other... or crap on both.
LarDasse74 is offline  
Old 02-06-10, 02:04 PM
  #25  
LarDasse74
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Grid Reference, SK
Posts: 3,768

Bikes: I never learned to ride a bike. It is my deepest shame.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by cnnrmccloskey View Post

i would have to disagree but to each his own

omfg.
LarDasse74 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.