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Sleeve-joined rims are of disadvantage when used for off-centerspoke rim design?

Old 02-09-10, 01:27 PM
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Sleeve-joined rims are of disadvantage when used for off-centerspoke rim design?

I have built 4 wheels with the aerohead OC rim. I repeatedly could observe that it creates one spoke next to the joint with extremely high - the other spoke next to the joint with very low tension (much, much more as this is encountered with symmetric spoke design sleeve-joined rims). I is my impression that the asymmetric pulling forces of the spokes create an angular bending force at the sleeved joint similar, as if a sleeved joined rim wasn't cut perpendicular.
I think this phenomenon cancels out all the advantages, since it creates a rather unstable situation. The OC-design is theoretically great, since it helps to partially even out the different spoke tensions in a rear wheel between drive and non drive side.
I was very intrigued by this repeated observation, and have could not find anything written about this elsewhere.
Are there off-center contact welded rims, which would avoid such phenomenon?
Thanks for any feedback

Last edited by saturnhr; 02-09-10 at 01:30 PM. Reason: grammer improvements
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Old 02-09-10, 01:50 PM
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the joint of many rims are finicky. some have a slight dip, a little hop, or perfect
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Old 02-09-10, 08:21 PM
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Are you confusing a manufacturing variation issue with a design issue?
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Old 02-09-10, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by saturnhr
I have built 4 wheels with the aerohead OC rim. I repeatedly could observe that it creates one spoke next to the joint with extremely high - the other spoke next to the joint with very low tension (much, much more as this is encountered with symmetric spoke design sleeve-joined rims). I is my impression that the asymmetric pulling forces of the spokes create an angular bending force at the sleeved joint similar, as if a sleeved joined rim wasn't cut perpendicular.
I think this phenomenon cancels out all the advantages, since it creates a rather unstable situation. The OC-design is theoretically great, since it helps to partially even out the different spoke tensions in a rear wheel between drive and non drive side.
I was very intrigued by this repeated observation, and have could not find anything written about this elsewhere.
Are there off-center contact welded rims, which would avoid such phenomenon?
Thanks for any feedback
Just what problem do you think you're going to encounter, assuming you're right?
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Old 02-09-10, 08:28 PM
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The rims with off-center spoke holes have MORE even tension right-to-left than conventional rims, and conventional rims have been chugging along just fine with sleeved joints for a long time.

The spokes around a sleeved joint in an ordinary rim do not break unusually easily.
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Old 02-09-10, 10:28 PM
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Your problem is not a design or function problem...it's a quality control issue.

The following is important for all rims - but especially more important as you go deeper and deeper in the aero rim sections due to the increased rigidity:

1. The ends of the rim before rolling must be cut a perfect 90 degrees.
2. The rolling maneuver must be torsion controlled for the entire circumference to insure:

- The joint mates and aligns correctly.
- The rim when assembled can be tensioned rather evenly - tensioned within 10% from hole to hole.

Sleeves do result in a slight increase in nipple fricton - but not enough to prevent proper tensioning of the wheel. Long as you lube the nipple seats it should not be an issue.

Lately I've had a beef with Velocity in regard to their DeepV and B43s and Chukkers. They are by name label a rim that demands a premium price much like Mavic. And obviously with the increased demand they had to increase production. However I get the impression that instead of bringing in another line of automated assembly line machines - they instead chose to speed up their current machinery...resulting in reduced quality control...

In the last 6 months over 80% of the DeepVs and B43's and Chukkers I have built have had defective joints - some so bad you can cut your finger skimming the joint. Others were so badly off the 90 degree cut requirement that you could see with the naked eye a flare at the joint approaching 3 mm - something that can cannot be corrected via truing - and results in one spoke super tight and one spoke super loose.

I'm talking approximately 50-60 rims in the past 6 months...

Hopefully Velocity will correct the problem...else myself and my customers will have to go with something else.

The Alex G6000 seems to be a decent alternative for a (GASP!) 29er wheel...otherwise known as a 700c wheel.

=8-)
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Old 02-10-10, 12:10 AM
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I think my argument has not been understood.
Has anybody of you ever build a wheel with the velocity OC asymmetric aerohead rim?
I am saying, that this rim creates repeatedly very very uneven spoke tension in the both spokes adjacent to the joint. My point is that this is caused by a design problem, namely that the off-center pull of the spokes on the wheel in the section next to the sleeve (and were the rim therefore is stiffer). The off-center pull tries to rotate the rim - so to speak inside out - (!) and it does so differently in the sleeve enforced section. If the rim had the same stiffness all around, it would stay round, since it is not, a kink is created. Such stiffer section (the sleeved section) has little or no effect, if the spokes pull in the center, but causes such effect in the off-center design.
My hypothesis is that a good off-center rim has to avoid any locally stiffening sleeve and a joining like contact welding is necessary (without sleeve). I realize that welding also changes hardness and flexibility, but much less than this reinforcing sleeve.
I am not criticizing the off-center design- such is great.
Again my main argument is the sentence above with the exclamation mark.
Thanks for any feedback
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Old 02-10-10, 12:20 AM
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I see what you are saying.
I built Synergy O/C's and run them on two of my bikes.
I don't recall having any issues, but perhaps the wider rim makes them less sensitive than the Aerohead's.
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Old 02-10-10, 12:29 AM
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I've had a bunch of rims have a hop at the joint, and those were regular staggered or inline rims.

I was particularly unimpressed at the velocity aerohead (normal) that I got. The rim had a pretty bad hop in it so it's a quality issue.

If you want better quality rims, don't buy velocity.
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Old 02-10-10, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by saturnhr
I think my argument has not been understood.
Has anybody of you ever build a wheel with the velocity OC asymmetric aerohead rim?
I am saying, that this rim creates repeatedly very very uneven spoke tension in the both spokes adjacent to the joint. My point is that this is caused by a design problem, namely that the off-center pull of the spokes on the wheel in the section next to the sleeve (and were the rim therefore is stiffer). The off-center pull tries to rotate the rim - so to speak inside out - (!) and it does so differently in the sleeve enforced section. If the rim had the same stiffness all around, it would stay round, since it is not, a kink is created. Such stiffer section (the sleeved section) has little or no effect, if the spokes pull in the center, but causes such effect in the off-center design.
My hypothesis is that a good off-center rim has to avoid any locally stiffening sleeve and a joining like contact welding is necessary (without sleeve). I realize that welding also changes hardness and flexibility, but much less than this reinforcing sleeve.
I am not criticizing the off-center design- such is great.
Again my main argument is the sentence above with the exclamation mark.
Thanks for any feedback
You need to slow down and read my post carefully as I explain what the cause is - it is about QA - not design - which AEO alludes to as well...

=8-)
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Old 02-10-10, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit
Your problem is not a design or function problem...it's a quality control issue.

The following is important for all rims - but especially more important as you go deeper and deeper in the aero rim sections due to the increased rigidity:

1. The ends of the rim before rolling must be cut a perfect 90 degrees.
2. The rolling maneuver must be torsion controlled for the entire circumference to insure:

- The joint mates and aligns correctly.
- The rim when assembled can be tensioned rather evenly - tensioned within 10% from hole to hole.

Sleeves do result in a slight increase in nipple fricton - but not enough to prevent proper tensioning of the wheel. Long as you lube the nipple seats it should not be an issue.

Lately I've had a beef with Velocity in regard to their DeepV and B43s and Chukkers. They are by name label a rim that demands a premium price much like Mavic. And obviously with the increased demand they had to increase production. However I get the impression that instead of bringing in another line of automated assembly line machines - they instead chose to speed up their current machinery...resulting in reduced quality control...

In the last 6 months over 80% of the DeepVs and B43's and Chukkers I have built have had defective joints - some so bad you can cut your finger skimming the joint. Others were so badly off the 90 degree cut requirement that you could see with the naked eye a flare at the joint approaching 3 mm - something that can cannot be corrected via truing - and results in one spoke super tight and one spoke super loose.

I'm talking approximately 50-60 rims in the past 6 months...

Hopefully Velocity will correct the problem...else myself and my customers will have to go with something else.

The Alex G6000 seems to be a decent alternative for a (GASP!) 29er wheel...otherwise known as a 700c wheel.

=8-)
Alex rims are very under rated in my opinion. The G6000 is is a brutally strong rim, and very reasonably priced. I think people associate the low price of Alex rims with low quality. To me, they represent great value accross their product line.
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Old 02-12-10, 12:18 AM
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Are there OC rims available for wheelbuilding avaible other then from Velocity?
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Old 02-12-10, 05:01 AM
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There is/was a Ritchey Girder OCR. Got some from Cambriabike a few years ago at a ridiculous price. Built up OK.
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Old 02-12-10, 10:02 AM
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Also, see the IRD Cadence VSR here: https://www.interlocracing.com/rims.html

And: https://bontrager.com/technology/offset_spoke_bed
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