So frustrated--what is WRONG with this Campy shifting??
 

Edit: See post #15 for the answer. Problem is diagnosed now.

I first posted about this problem in this thread. 2007 Record Ultra 10-speed shifters, Record Titanium derailleur.

The problem is that when shifting to the 4 larger cogs (other than the largest), the chain doesn't ease back into its proper indexed position, so it chatters against the next larger cog. If I press the thumb button lightly, then the chain immediately trims its position and is perfect. This only happens when shifting from smaller to larger cogs, never when shifting from larger to smaller.

--I was wrong in the previous post, the problem came on quickly, not gradually. During a ride on a very warm day two weeks ago, it just started doing this. No crashes or trauma of any kind.
--It does indeed mimic the symptoms of cable binding, but that is NOT the problem here. I had recently installed new cables and housing, but just to be doubly sure, I replaced everything with die-drawn super slick cabling and it moves like silk. Problem persists.
--I removed and cleaned the derailleur and lubed all pivot points; spring tension feels strong, derailleur alignment is fine. Not a scratch on the derailleur.
--I took off the shifter, opened it up, completely flushed out everything and applied quality oil to the moving parts. All old grease is out, everything is lubed and moving fine. These shifters are two years old, less than 5000 miles, everything looks perfectly brand new inside.

I don't want to disassemble them unless I'm convinced that these specific symptoms indicate the need for a rebuild. But people much more knowledgeable than I said No, these are not the symptoms of a weakened G-spring or broken carrier, so a rebuild would not help.

Please help me to not hate Campy. I am about ready to give this stuff away. :mad:

Sounds like the shifter to me.

What happens if you give the cable or derailleur a tug instead?

Would you post it to Melbourne? : p

:roflmao:

Same result if I tug on the cable. The chain goes into its proper position. But I can't for the life of me figure out what is causing the shifter to do that. It's more like too much spring tension than not enough!

Campy cassettes can be assembled incorrectly in regard to the spacers being in the proper sequence. The shifting will be screwed up if this is the case. There are diagrams in the cassette instruction manual showing the correct order for the various cassettes.

Probably worth checking.

Also, make sure you have the cable attached correctly at the rear derailleur's anchor bolt. If you're familiar with Sheldon's "alternate cable routing" for Shimano derailleurs, you realize that the orientation of the cable to the anchor bolt can affect the cable pull ratio, which affects shifting. I've seen a Campy rear derailleur that exhibited mysterious shifting problems, and it turned out the cable was attached incorrectly at the anchor bolt. Basically, it was unintentional "alternate cable routing."

I might be crazy but there is a chance that maybe the spacer is the wrong one? Did u check the spacers dimension with a caliper?

Did u set up the RD correctly??, U need to give 4 clicks to the shifter the chain should be in the cog#5 when u set the rd the 1st time, if you don't do it that way the shifting gets all messed up.

Thanks guys, I did check the spacing and indexing with extreme care. It had been working just fine in the weeks prior to the start of this issue, perfectly in fact. I am extremely good at dialing in the indexing, and the cassette spacers are right. Good point about the cable attachment, I know what you mean about Sheldon's "alternate" cable routing. I had been using Powercordz, which have to be wrapped all the way around the anchor bolt, but still the actual attachment point was the correct one (and had been functioning fine in the weeks prior). To make doubly sure, I replaced the Powercordz cable with a die-drawn slick stainless cable, and the problem is exactly the same.

I'm trying to avoid doing an unnecessary overhaul of the shifter internals, because the thing is so new that it seems really unlikely that it's necessary.

But here's a thought. The spring carrier in these shifters is made of plastic and subject to breaking, but usually the symptom is the opposite--it won't stay on a bigger cog. This one not only stays there, it stays too far. But what if the plastic has broken and gotten out of alignment--could it be preventing the mechanism from moving back into position after a shift? is that likely?

On my Veloce shifter, my broken G spring made the shifting very mushy. It did happen within 3000 miles, though.

Last summer, with 14,000 miles on the shifter, it's shift lever return spring broke (which kept the long shift lever from engaging). When I disassembled the shifter, I also found a cracked spring carrier. I did have some vague shifting before that, but thought it was just worn parts. I don't remember if it was on upshifts or downshifts, though.

It was this circular piece that had cracked next to the post:
http://branfordbike.com/merchant/167.../small/111.jpg See part #9 on this page

The G springs fit into the small holes in that carrier, and if it's cracked, there would be some play in the shifting.

How many miles do you have on the shifter, and do you shift often while riding? The G springs get worn down, and don't shift as cleanly, even if not broken. After replacing the broken spring, the cracked carrier, and the G springs (since I had it apart), it was shifting really crisply again.

Yeah! That spring carrier (part #9 that you linked to) has been a chronic problem in a lot of these, so I'm really wondering if that could be in play here. So at the very least, it would be worth opening it up to replace that with an alloy one.

Thanks to everyone for the replies, keep the ideas coming if you think of anything else.

The fact that the bike was shifting properly and this problem came on gradually make it pretty much certain to be a shifter problem. If the cassette worked before and wasn't changed, it's obvious the spacing and sequence are correct.

As cheap as the repair parts are, I would not have taken the shifter apart just to look at it without installing g-springs at the minimum. The problem really does sound like a broken g-spring retainer, from descriptions that others have posted. I never broke one in 15 years of using Campy.

If all else fails, try 2010 Centaur ultrashift levers. They are a lot more comfortable.

Certain spacers can be installed in the wrong sequence - more likely with loose cog cassettes. Still possible with Record or Chorus, but the spacer between the two pairs of cogs being wrong should really be noticeable.

See pages 25-29 of this PDF.

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository...s08_B_1007.pdf

I assume that the RD hanger alignment has been checked? If not, do that.

Some people find the RD shift cable tension to be mysterious. Always work your way up to the minimum tension that will make good shifts to larger cogs. Over tensioning could result in overshifting, but it should also make for poor shifts to smaller cogs.

The cable routing is tough to get wrong - the cable goes on the side of the bolt closest to the wheel. Routing the cable on the wrong side would make a huge change is the actuation ratio.

Thanks Dave. I should clarify, I haven't taken the internals out of the shifter yet, just unmounted it, removed the hood and bottom cover plate. Before further disassembling it, I wanted to try the simplest cure first, by completely flushing out any old grease and dirt to rule out simple binding of the float mechanism. Now that I've done that, it's pretty clear that something else must be going on in there (though I still can't imagine what). My plan is to order the alloy spring carrier and g-springs, and go ahead with replacing those when they get here. And I'm gonna be really pi$$ed if that doesn't fix it.

In fact, I may order one of the cheapie Mirage Escape right hand shift levers for $70 from Jenson, so my husband can at least be riding this bike while I'm pulling my hair out over troubleshooting this shifter.

Yes, hanger alignment is great, cable tension checked and re-checked, every possible microadjustment has been tried, attachment is correct. Cable movement is smooth as glass.

I would not waste money on a spare right shifter when you can buy new Centaur 10 shifters for $190, including a new cable set worth $50 (that must be used with these levers).

The new brake hoods are much more comfortable. The only warning though, is you want late '09 or '10 models that have the firmer click to the right finger lever. Don't buy early 2009.

Of course the other option is to buy Athena or Chorus 11 shifters, a chain and cassette and go 11 speed.

FWIW, the little you've done so far is peanuts compared to the rebuild process. It's simple the second time, but the first time can be frustrating - so many small details.

The new ultrashift levers are much easier to repair and should rarely need any repair with the new design.

+1000. And with a derailleur hanger alignment gauge, not by "eye." It's a five minute job with a Park DAG-1, and very important with modern drivetrains.

AND the winner is....

broken spring carrier.

Congratulations on solving the problem. While you have it open replace the 2 Index (g) springs at the same time.

Thanks to everyone who helped, both in this thread and the former one. I guess we know now that the symptoms of a broken spring carrier can manifest in different ways. This was seemingly not the typical way that the problem shows up, but there's certainly no doubt now about what was causing it. That post was broken completely off.

Ordering new carrier and g-springs now. (ALLOY carrier, and two new springs)

Thanks again, everyone. :thumb:

Thank you so much for your help, FB. You and DaveSSS really went the extra mile to help me with this, and I appreciate it very much.

Nicely done, good call! The post was broken off the carrier, but there were no other cracks anywhere else on it. This shifter has around 5000 miles on it, but the original owner did indeed shift a lot (fast rider, usually in a group of fast riders, hilly courses). Still, I think that this is an idiotic use of plastic instead of alloy to save--what--a fraction of a gram? Oh well, it'll be alloy now, and with new springs hopefully it won't need service for a long time to come.

Plastic for a bit like that? On Record?

That's disappointing. My old 8spd Veloce units were relatively bulletproof. Prolly 100g heavier too, but at least they were designed properly.

I know! It's all for weight savings, no doubt. They call it "carbon" but c'mon, it's plastic. And flimsy plastic at that, not even reinforced at the bottom of that post. Now the alloy ones are even reinforced there (which is what I've ordered). But of course it is still possible to order another "carbon" one exactly like the one that broke! Yeah, that'll happen. :rolleyes:

simplify this is out of topic but from what i can see you are a girl, do you have a sister? just asking because i would love to have my wife taking care of this kind of things hehehe... Just in case in you tube you can find a video showing how to take apart and put the brifter all together.

:)

Just as a counterpoint, I've read postings that claim the aluminum model spring retainer to be more failure prone. I've never had one break in the 15 years I've been riding Campy, but some of my shifters only had 7-8,000 miles on them when I sold them, as I moved on from 8-9-10-11 speed, always in the the very first year of production. I never had a g-spring totally wear out or break either, but I have replaced them just as a precaution.

The new ultrashift lever have no g-springs to wear out and they are so much easier to work on, if ever needed.

:D No, just brothers, which is probably why I grew up to love bikes and mechanical challenges. So guys, teach your daughters how to fix things! If she wants toy trucks instead of Barbies, go with it! Doesn't mean she can't still be a girly girl too. ;)

Thanks for the mention of the YouTube vids, they are really helpful. Here's a link that DaveSSS provided in my previous thread on this issue, which lists all the Campy videos: http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search

Plastic or metal, I don't think it makes a world of difference. What's sad is Campagnolo's apparent inability to learn from their own mistakes.

Originally the metal part was of the same basic design as this one and worked fine for a while. Then suddenly they started to have a breakage problem, possibly because of a bad batch. They modified the part by adding reinforcing gussets at the base of the leg, and that virtually eliminated any breakage issues.

My question is, having learned that the gusset bought them a higher margin of safety and virtually eliminated breakage, why in the world did they drop it when they changed to the composite (plastic, carbon, whatever) material? It just doesn't make any sense to me given the their history with this part.