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Frankenbike ShimErgo SRAMano compatibility?

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Frankenbike ShimErgo SRAMano compatibility?

Old 06-30-10, 03:39 AM
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Frankenbike ShimErgo SRAMano compatibility?

I have three older bikes with 7 speed rear drive train. I would like to upgrade my shifters, and be able to upgrade to 8 speed cassettes, and possibly 9 or 10 speed depending on cost and availability as parts wear out.

I've read that I can use 8 speed shifters with my 7 speed cassette. I've also read 10 speed Campy Ergo Shifters have the same cable pull as 8 speed Shimano shifters, and the cable pull for 10 speed SRAM (ESP) shifters have close enough cable pull that they can be used (but there is less empirical data on shifting quality with SRAM, so it's hard to know how much difference it makes in practice).

I'm wondering if anyone has tried 10 speed Campy or SRAM shifters with 7 speed Shimano cassette and derailluer. Does it work? How smooth is the shifting?

It seems like this would work, but I'd rather someone else verify it before I buy the parts.

I'm considering Campy Veloce Ergo shifters (for a hybrid dropbar conversion) and SRAM bar-end shifters for a mountain bike with moustache bar.

Opinions? Experiences?

If it hasn't been done, I'm sure some of you have the parts. I know I'm not the only one who would like to be able to make incremental upgrades. Would anyone be willing to try it?

If this works it should be possible to upgrade shifters and keep your cassette until it's worn out, then move to 8 speed, or with alternate cable routing possibly 9 speed cassette and chain (I'm sure some derailluers would fair better for that then others), and eventually change to a SRAM derailluer and 10 speed cassette and chain.

I guess if I try it and it doesn't work an 8 speed cassette it's to expensive an additional, and that's been tried.
Has anyone tried 10 speed SRAM bar-ends with a Shimano derailluer and 8 speed cassette?

I'd just as soon not go with thinner chain and cogs that wear out faster, especially if I have to pay extra.
I guess at some point 9 and 10 speed will be cheaper, and it seems it's already as available or more available than 8 speed (and far more readilly available than 7 speed).

Last edited by NightShift; 06-30-10 at 03:49 AM. Reason: Edited for typos
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Old 06-30-10, 05:19 AM
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https://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

This article should set you up.

Last edited by Fred Smedley; 06-30-10 at 05:37 AM.
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Old 06-30-10, 09:54 AM
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My opinion: shifters (road versions) are expensive and chains/cassettes are cheap. If you are going to buy the shifters, you might as well go all the way with the cassette and chain at the same time. With road stuff, if you want to use new parts you are looking at 9, 10, and 11 speed if going with Campy and 10 speed only for SRAM. You can still get 8 speed Shimano shifters which would allow you to not worry about any of this Frankenbike stuff assuming you paired them with an 8 speed cassette (which likely means a new rear wheel for you).

If you really want to upgrade incrementally starting with 7 speed, your only real option is friction shifters. They'd allow you the most freedom.
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Old 06-30-10, 12:01 PM
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Fred,
I greatly appreciate the link, but it only shows cassette pitch, not cable pull. And it doesn't list Shimano 8 speed with Shimano 7 speeds (which by the numbers looks seems like it would not work well) which I know people have done successfully. And it doesn't list SRAM 10 speed at all.

I realize I forget to list a new cassette hub body or a new hub or new wheel as part of the upgrade. For the hybrid I will be getting new wheels. For the mountain bike, would it be better to replace the wheel or (with a mid '90s Alivio hub) have the hub body replaced?

JoeJack,
I would really rather go with 8 speed than 9, 10, or 11. The only reason I would be interested in going with parts that wear faster is if there was a significant cost savings or the longer wearing parts weren't available. 8 speed shifters may be a dying breed, but the cassettes are available and affordable.
The price for 9 speed cassettes isn't bad, but 10 and 11 still look pretty expensive to me.
I could go with 8 speed Shimano bar-ends (I don't particularly like the Soras), but if I have to move to 9 speed down the line (or 10 speed) I'll have to buy new shifters again.

If SRAM 10 speed shifters will work with Shimano 8 speed I'll be a lot happier.

I should be able to get SRAM 10 speed bar-ends for under a $100. If I can use them with my existing chain and cassette until the cassette needs to be replaced this would be a very reasonable upgrade, especially since I have to replace my shifters anyway.
It sounds like this should work with 8 speed, and I'm pretty sure I'll be getting a good deal on a wheelset for my hybrid, so I'll do that and wait on upgrading the mountain bike if I need to (If I have the parts you can be sure I'll try).

I may have a deal on a used set of Campy Veloce, but I haven't seen them yet, and there wouldn't be any warranty.
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Old 06-30-10, 12:45 PM
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I wouldn't even try to do what you want. Just get 10sp across the board. You will have problems getting 8 speed in the future.

Just remember, your incremental upgrade will get much more expensive over time. Do it all at once.
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Old 06-30-10, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NightShift
I could go with 8 speed Shimano bar-ends (I don't particularly like the Soras), but if I have to move to 9 speed down the line (or 10 speed) I'll have to buy new shifters again.
Go with Shimano 9 speed bar ends then. Since you appear averse to 10 speed systems, there's no reason to get bar ends that can index that many speeds. 9 speed bar ends will cover you for 7, 8 (both in friction only), and 9 speeds (10 too again in friction only) and give you indexing for 9 speed. If 9 speed cassettes hang around as long as 7 speed have, you won't have any problems finding them 20 years from now so nothing to worry about there.

FYI, you can get non-Sora 8 speed STIs: https://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...8&category=162

Why would you even consider SRAM bar ends? What deraillers do you have now?
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Old 06-30-10, 01:37 PM
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The info posted does have AVERAGE cable pulls. Shimano and Campy both use non-unform cable pulls, such that none equals the average. SRAM 10 shifters pull a uniform 3mm per click and that does not work with any Campy or Shimano RD.
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Old 07-01-10, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Go with Shimano 9 speed bar ends then. Since you appear averse to 10 speed systems, there's no reason to get bar ends that can index that many speeds. 9 speed bar ends will cover you for 7, 8 (both in friction only), and 9 speeds (10 too again in friction only) and give you indexing for 9 speed. If 9 speed cassettes hang around as long as 7 speed have, you won't have any problems finding them 20 years from now so nothing to worry about there.

FYI, you can get non-Sora 8 speed STIs: https://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...8&category=162

Why would you even consider SRAM bar ends? What deraillers do you have now?
I may just use friction shifting, in which case I have some power ratcheting friction shifters, and no need for new hardware (yet).

Isn't the "flight deck button" design of those shifters the same as the Sora's? I don't think I would like them any better.

There seem to be plenty of people who are happily running ShimErgo setups. SRAM 10 speed has almost the same (average) cable pull as Campy 10 speed, and the bar ends are half the price (and look cool). If SRAM works as well as Campy it would seem worth considering.

I have Shimano STX and Alivio derailluers.
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Old 07-01-10, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zacster
Just remember, your incremental upgrade will get much more expensive over time. Do it all at once.
Maybe I'm a little slow, but I don't see how it's any cheaper to upgrade everything now. If I can run the new shifters with the cassette, chain, and derailluer I have now, then I can wait till I would have needed to replace the cassette anyway.
If I have to buy an 8 speed cassette now it's still cheaper than buying a 9 or 10 speed, and I don't have to worry how my derailluers will fair with the thinner chain, and I can expect the cassette (and chains) to last longer.

When the 8 speed cassette wears out, if replacements are hard to come by or overpriced, I can buy a SRAM derailluer that was made for the skinny chain, keep the same shifters, and "upgrade" to 10 speed.

If I don't have to buy any parts in the future that I wouldn't have needed now, and any parts I buy now last as long or longer then the more expensive parts I could buy now, where does the added expense come from?

The only way I can see this costing extra is if I buy the parts and it doesn't work.
Even then, if I wanted to go with 10 speed, the only parts I wouldn't be able to use would be a chain and 8 speed cassette; nothing extremely expensive, and the chain could be used on the mountain bike.

Somehow I don't think you were referring to the cost of one 8 speed cassette.
And 10 speed derailluers, chains, and cassettes will probably get cheaper over the next couple years.
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Old 07-01-10, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by NightShift
Isn't the "flight deck button" design of those shifters the same as the Sora's? I don't think I would like them any better.
No, those shifters have the same shift lever set up as Tiagra through Dura Ace. The Flight Deck button mentioned is for controlling Shimano's computers that have a gear display on them and interface with the shifters. The button allows you to change the screen info without taking your hands off the levers.

Originally Posted by NightShift
There seem to be plenty of people who are happily running ShimErgo setups. SRAM 10 speed has almost the same (average) cable pull as Campy 10 speed, and the bar ends are half the price (and look cool). If SRAM works as well as Campy it would seem worth considering.

I have Shimano STX and Alivio derailluers.
Yes, it can be done. That doesn't mean it's the best way to build your incremental set up. And as DaveSSS posted, don't even bother trying to use SRAM shifters with Shimano deraillers. Can those SRAM bar ends even work in friction mode? I thought they were index only.
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Old 07-01-10, 09:02 AM
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The cable pull on a SRAM shifter is not even close to that of Campy. Campy 10 shifters pull 2.5mm five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice. After the first 5 shifts, a SRAM shifter will pull 6 shifts worth of cable. It can't work very well.
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Old 07-01-10, 09:24 AM
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NightShift, consider this: It is far more likely that whichever shifters you choose will crap out long before your cassette of choice becomes unavailable or very expensive. For example, try finding some 7 speed brifters to go with all of the dirt cheap 7 speed cassettes still available.
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Old 07-01-10, 01:13 PM
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joejack,
Thank you for the info on the shifters. The price still seems a little high, but I will try to find them locally so I can check them out. Maybe they will be a good option.

Dave,
Thank you for the info on SRAM cable pull.

There are a few things I don't understand. If the cable pull for SRAM and Campy are so different, how does Zinn's Campy SRAM mix work?
https://velonews.competitor.com/2008/...-why-not_73404

How do the ShiftMates compensate for this difference?
https://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate_straight.htm

I know that where the cable attaches to the parallelagram changes how much it moves for a given cable pull, but what is the design difference that allows SRAM derailluers to have a different actuation for each pull so they can index for a cassette designed to work with the non uniform pull of a Shimano shifter?

And is this guy blowing smoke, or how does this work?
https://www.google.com/m/url?client=m...NL5160aCm46k9Q

I've actually read were other people claimed the travel agent trick worked. I'll try to find additional links if anyone is interested.
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Old 07-01-10, 01:39 PM
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Take a close look at a SRAM road RD. It's quite a bit different than Campy or Shimano. All you need to know is it uses uniform pulls of 3mm to produce uniform 3.95mm moves of the RD. Shimano accomplishes the same thing with much smaller and nonuniform cable pulls.

A shiftmate only changes the average pull. With a SRAM shifter, they could make every pull be 2.8mm, but that's not great when a Campy RD wants pulls of 2.5mm five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice.

Zinn's setup can't work very well. He must having smoking something when he wrote that one up.

Most of the guys who claim that some of these mismatched systems work are not very picky about accurate shifting and they've never taken the effort to actually measure the individual cables pulls, which I have. It's really quite easy to do.
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Old 07-02-10, 01:57 AM
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I really don't want to seem rude, but do you not know how SRAM RDs work, or just that you didn't feel like explaining it?

I'll take a close look at my friends SRAM ESP (MTB) RD when I get a chance.

I won't even try to address the statement about the majority of mismatch systems; the scope is to broad.
But, you're telling me that the ShiftMates don't work and Zinn must have been smoking something because his setup can't work.

I don't have the shifters, so I can't recreate your measurements, or I would be glad to do so.
Can you site any reference that supports your statements?

Has anyone else here measured the individual cable pulls? Of so would you please post (or link to) your results?

I haven't tried these setups, I don't have these parts, and I haven't taken the relevant measurements.
Given conflicting reports I would like confirmation, preferably before spending my money.
I make no claims regarding who's right. If I knew I wouldn't be asking.
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