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My tire patches start to fail

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My tire patches start to fail

Old 08-16-10, 08:53 AM
  #1  
kamtsa
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My tire patches start to fail

Recently my on the road tire patches keep failing. They do stay in place but the gas leaks through a small tunnel under the patch. This happens during the ride itself, not over long time.

The main change I can think of is that I started using a CO2 inflater. Is it possible that the CO2 causes it to fail e.g. due to the low temperature, rapid pressure buildup or other properties of CO2?

Up to few months ago, before the change, I had much higher patching success rate.

I am using Schwalbe tires at 90psi, with Rem patch kit.

Thanks,

Kam
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Old 08-16-10, 08:58 AM
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I don't think the CO2 is the issue. What I have noticed over the past year or so is that the tubes require more thorough scuffing in the glue area or the patches do not hold as well. I don't know why that is. I do know that this has solved my problems. Maybe it will solve yours as well.
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Old 08-16-10, 09:43 AM
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I agree about careful scuffing. I also bought tube patch glue at the auto parts store, I feel it's better though no formal testing.
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Old 08-16-10, 09:46 AM
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I keep a few of these in the seatbag to clean the area prior to applying the "glue."
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Old 08-16-10, 10:01 AM
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How about something radical like replacing a damaged tube?
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Old 08-16-10, 10:06 AM
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When applying the patch, make sure the tube is inflated to roughly the size it will be when expanded inside the tyre. This prevents the patch from stretching and possibly unsticking itself from the tube.
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Old 08-16-10, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DieselDan View Post
How about something radical like replacing a damaged tube?
Instead of patching it? I don't get what you're saying? A lot of times when a person is patching a tube, it means they've already used the replacement tube they carry -- if they even carry one.

And to the OP... always use glue patches. Never those adhesive ones. Also, when you put the glue on, wait until it becomes just barely opaque and the put the patch on while applying lots of pressure. Keep applying pressure for a few minutes and then use it. This method fuses the two pieces of rubber.
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Old 08-16-10, 10:21 AM
  #8  
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I've only once had a patch fail like that, it was also the only time I didn't let the vulcanizer fully dry out before putting on the patch. The 'tunnel' was where the vulcanizer was a bit thicker.
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Old 08-16-10, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kamtsa View Post
Recently my on the road tire patches keep failing.
The CO2 is not the problem. It would be best to replace the tube on the road and then use a glue patch on the flat tube after you get home. Be sure to sand the whole area under the patch before applying the glue. I place a flat heavy weight on the patch while the glue dries overnight. Using a glue patch on the road can work but there are risks.
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Old 08-16-10, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
I've only once had a patch fail like that, it was also the only time I didn't let the vulcanizer fully dry out before putting on the patch. The 'tunnel' was where the vulcanizer was a bit thicker.
It is possible that I had small lumps there because the glue was already punctures from previous usages.

How do you spread the glue? Should is is OK to spread with a finger? I avoid touching the glue and spread with the tube itself.
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Old 08-16-10, 10:45 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by DieselDan View Post
How about something radical like replacing a damaged tube?
That's what I ended doing but removing the rear wheel is a hassle (no QR, dealing with the chain/dérailleur, etc).
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Old 08-16-10, 10:46 AM
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Yes, the application techniques, of a clean scuffed surface on the tube and fresh glue, letting its solvents evaporate,
then stretching the combination to get them well bonded, takes time.

Using a CO2 cartridge , rather than a hand pump, suggests, to me, you were inclined to be rushing the job,
not taking sufficient time .. to get the patch well bonded.


I'm inclined to, preferably, have a new spare tube, and put it in on the road,
then patch the removed tube , so as to have it as the spare, for the next puncture.

Last edited by fietsbob; 08-16-10 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 08-16-10, 10:52 AM
  #13  
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In a recent spat of flats, I also have had a an increase in patch failure. First I had reviewed my technique (thourough scuffing, glue dry time, firm patch application, over night wait before inflation) What had changed with me is I had some old off brand patch kits picked up NOS. and I had started using a tube of rubber cement (slime brand). My assumption is that the patches my have aged (??) or were of low quality, though not by appearance. Even with a rash of flats I don't patch that much so in the future it's only going to be REMA patches and glue for me. I though perhaps there is adifference in rubber cememt and vulcanizing compound. I tried to read an old thread on the subject and was confused by the science.

As for replacing the tube, I commute and flip a few bikes. My budget is such that I will always patch if patchablle. I will say that since I stopped riding cheap tires and invested in name brand tires, my flats have reduced dramatically.

OBTW: The spat of flats were on old tubes which have since been replaced with new due to the failed patching. Does old tubes make a difference in patchability?
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Old 08-16-10, 12:24 PM
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Here are some of my techniques. My patch success rate is better than 90%.

After locating the puncture I center it on a small Rema patch kit box and clamp it on the other side with a clothes pin. The purpose for the box is to provide backing for a thorough sanding job. I sand a much wider area than the patch will cover. I also sand down any ridges due to the mold used in manufacturing the tube.

I then apply a small dab of Rema glue on the sanded portion but away from the puncture and outside the area the patch will occupy. I then spread the glue into a thin layer that occupies an area greater than the patch with my clean pinky. I then let the glue dry completely without blowing on it.

I select a patch, while the glue is drying. Rema makes several different size patches. The two I find most useful are the more common F1 which is 25 mm in diameter and the more useful (for me) F0 which is 16 mm in diameter. The important thing is that the patch not have a greater diameter than the half width of the flattened tube that I've clamped to a patch kit box with a clothes pin.

When the glue is dry, I pull the foil off the patch, hold the patch by a corner of the cellophane and press the patch onto the tube. I've got only 1 chance to center the patch on the tube, which is another reason for clamping the tube to that patch kit box. I rub the patch from the center to the outside, when it has been placed on the tube. I also take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to apply more pressure on the patch. The idea is to make sure that the patch and the tube are completely in contact with one another - no air pocket in between them.

I then unclamp the tube and slit the cellophane crosswise and remove it. I'm careful to remove the cellophane from the center of the patch to the outside. The cellophane will usually pop off if I stretch the tube while holding the edges of the cellophane that are beyond the patch.

After pumping the tube up to make sure the patch will hold, I spread some talc over the patch from the small thimble container that was included in Dunlop patch kits.
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Old 08-16-10, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
I've only once had a patch fail like that, it was also the only time I didn't let the vulcanizer fully dry out before putting on the patch. The 'tunnel' was where the vulcanizer was a bit thicker.
Even and smooth application of the vulcanizing fluid is key. I find sticking the tip of the glue tube on the tube and painting it on takes too long and the first areas are dry by the time you complete the application. It's easier to drip a drop the size of a unpopped kernel of popcorn onto the middle of the patch and using the patch to smear it on. Takes just 1-sec and you've got an evenly applied layer that's perfectly smooth. I don't like to use anything else to touch the glue because it can contaminate it. Then let dry for 20-30 seconds and press on the patch.
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Old 08-16-10, 12:35 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Even and smooth application of the vulcanizing fluid is key.
Agreed. That one failure was when I was knowingly being careless - at home distracted, etc.
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Old 08-16-10, 12:49 PM
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I like SBinNYC's methods, except that testing the tube without putting in the tire seems like a risk. I don't do that.

I've also learned that it's better to err on the side of letting the glue dry too long than not letting it dry long enough. I once forgot about it for at least 15 minutes. I put the patch on, and it worked fine. So longer is better. Just be sure the glue doesn't get contaminated with dust or other stuff while you're waiting.
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Old 08-16-10, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kamtsa View Post
That's what I ended doing but removing the rear wheel is a hassle (no QR, dealing with the chain/dérailleur, etc).
Try shifting the derailluer to the small cog first.
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Old 08-16-10, 04:11 PM
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I don't see the point in on-road patching. To me, the most expedient thing is: Carry a spare tube. Inspect the rim, strip, tire, etc. to make sure pucture doesn't repeat itself. Install the spare, air (CO2, whatever) up, store the spare and ride on. Once home, with time to spare, repair the puncture and return the tube to service as the spare. Total tube/repair cost, total service life of tubes, etc. are the same, but without the hassle of patching on the road. And the patches tend to work more reliably when not installed "under duress".
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Old 08-16-10, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
I don't see the point in on-road patching. To me, the most expedient thing is: Carry a spare tube
The point may be the 2nd flat.
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
And the patches tend to work more reliably when not installed "under duress".
and it can be done more efficiently if you batch
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Old 08-16-10, 05:36 PM
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Trick to successful patching is to keep things as clean and dry as possible where you are applying the patch. My youngest brother used to complain how his patches never hold while he noticed mine seem permanent. I looked closely at one of his patch jobs and noticed all the dust dirt and oily smudges stuck on the tube around the patch and I knew right away what his problem was.
The vulcanizing glue on patches can only stick their best if there is nothing between them and the rubber you are apllying it to.
Also make sure you rough up the surface of the tube around the hole so the glue and patch will have some "teeth" on the rubber to work their way into and hold on to. Patch kits always include a small square of sand papaer to do this.

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Old 08-16-10, 05:54 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Al1943 View Post
The CO2 is not the problem. It would be best to replace the tube on the road and then use a glue patch on the flat tube after you get home. Be sure to sand the whole area under the patch before applying the glue. I place a flat heavy weight on the patch while the glue dries overnight. Using a glue patch on the road can work but there are risks.
CO2 IS the problem. A bicycle tube is permeable enough to CO2 gas that a tube filled with CO2, even without a patch, will go partially to completely flat overnight. If search is working, you can find any number of threads on the subject.

You still need good patching technique, but use your floor pump at home and CO2 for road emergencies.
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