L8Guy

Hi

Just learning to build wheels for my new/old R20. I started on the rear wheel with the SA hub. The original chromed steel rim had started flaking chrome so I got an alloy 406 rim and carefully removed old spokes. Everything came off ok and I laced the old spokes in the new rim using a cross 3 pattern. I trued the wheel and would like to put on the new Big Apple tires I have. Problem is, some of the spokes stick into the rim past the nipples, and I think could poke through the rim tape and damage the tube. Can one use a Dremel tool to smooth out these spoke ends? Is there another way this can be done?

I really need some insight into this situation and would appreciate any help that can be offered. Thanks

3alarmer 

L8Guy:

I have used various methods over the years, because
this is not uncommon. Good news is you're sure the
spokes are carrying their load with quite a few threads
in the nipple. Bad news is as you have correctly surmised.

Dremel ought to work, use a grindstone or wheel. Most
spokes are drawn from pretty good steel, so your grinding
end of choice needs to handle some abuse -- should be
relatively coarse. I currently use a small grindstone that
fits into most wheel rims without contacting the sides,
chucked into a small pneumatic grinder that runs off
my compressor, but anything that rotates and grinds
that fits down onto the spoke end without damaging the
rim is fair game for use.

Hozan makes a spoke nipper that is supposed to nibble
off these ends more quickly, but they are difficult to
find here. I have one that arrived in the mail only a
week or two ago, but haven't yet used it, so cannot
recommend it yet.

Yours,
Mike Larmer

bikeman715

sound like your spokes are a little to long. but anyway yes you can use a dremel tool if it will reach into the rim and to the spokes or you can just use a file and file the spokes down to the nipples, just make sure they are flat and smooth so they don't poke thou the rim tape and hit the tube.

Greenfieldja

That is a sign that you have the wrong size spokes. The proper thing to do is to rebuild the wheel with the correct size spokes.

You certainly can buzz the tops of the spokes with a dremel if you want but I would think your wheel tension is off, either too high or too low if you have to do that.

-j

L8Guy

Thank you for your thoughts and help. As to spoke length, I am re-using the old spokes for the time being because I want to see if everything works. The old rim and the new rim are the same dimensions so I suspect the spoke length is ok. After re-lacing to a cross 3 form, most (but not all) of the spokes are ok. I don't believe they are over tightened and my hope is they are 'just right' or at worse a quarter turn or so more. I couldn't check very much when I got it, as the bike looked like it hadn't been ridden in a long while and I didn't want to do any further damage to it. When I took apart the BB, I found very little grease there at all, as well as in the front hub. The SA 3 speed hub I am sure hadn't been lubricated so I have cleaned it and put a bit of oil in. I am re-using the front wheel complete with tire (also for the time being), and have greased and re-assembled the front fork. While using a file, I would be concerned that I would damage the rim (I'm not a very good filer, both steel and folders ). So I am pleased that you feel a dremel tool would be ok to use.

Again, many thanks, you have set this old mind in Ontario at ease

wmodavis

Good on you for learning wheel building. It's fun and rewarding and most of all you develop a better understanding of what goes into a wheel.

A couple of thoughts from this wheelbuilder. Some has already been mentioned.
1. Correct spoke length is determined by the geometry of the hub and rim and the desired lacing pattern. If you have the correct hub and rim data or learn to measure them yourself (even better) and use one or several of the available spoke calculators, then buy or obtain the correct length spokes you won't have them poking through. With some rim geometries even if they poke through it won't matter except that it does indicate something is amiss. I would be concerned that some sticking through have bottomed out and therefore could not be sufficiently tensioned. But that may not be your current situation so grinding is an alternative. I'd be wary though.

2. You said 'some' of the spokes poke through. Since it is desirable to have even tension in the spokes and that should occur when the correct length spokes are threaded on pretty close to the same amount, there may be a problem with even/equal tension. Did you check the tension or tension balance (maybe by listening for same tone on same side if the wheel)? Or is it possible you mixed the spokes from the DS and NDS of the old wheel. The spokes on a rear wheel are usually different lengths. If you mixed them some would/could protude more or less than others.

3 I presume you are going to proceed with the front wheel building. Spokes on a front are the same length on either side (usually) but not so if wheel is a disc based rim (usually). So be careful about mixing spoke lengths on the front in that case.

4. Do you have any idea of the history of the old spokes you are using? New spokes are preferred because they essentially have no history. The history I'm referring to is past tension on previous wheel and length and type of service. Spokes usually break due to metal fatigue and that cannot be seen so the history helps make a judgement as to whether reusing old spokes is too much of a gamble or maybe not or who cares and you'll take the risk. Past tension matters because 'under' tensioned spokes suffer from fatigue much more then properly or highly tensioned spokes. My guess is that likely you know very little of the spokes past so what you have as far as pre-fatigued, ready to break spokes is unknown. So you go with it and hope it's OK. But do not be too surprised when you have a breakage. Also it's a good reason to know your current spoke tensions. Higher is better to a point. I keep a chart of them for history, information and later comparison.

5. Riding on a wheel you built is a good feeling especially if you know you did it right. There is lots of good info out there on doing it right and a lot of different opinions to sort through. I like or Roger Musson's e-book and Sheldon's write-ups and others as well. It can be confusing as there is not one single perfect way of doing it. There is some art and preference and some science (physics).

L8Guy

wmodavis, your list is quite helpful. The mistake I made at the beginning was delving in and thinking only about cleaning the SA rear IGH. I knew I wasn't going to use that rim so I just loosened all the spokes and removed them. I should have noted which ones had the spoke heads inside and which ones had spoke heads outside. It probably would have helped to make a note of whether any spokes crossed under others. However, my enthusiasm won out. I did check the spoke lengths, and figured they were all the same size. Later, after some research (large frown), I noted that some spokes could be as little a 1-2 mm different than others and my way of checking size was to grab all the spokes and tap them on table and have a quick look at length. Yep, all looked about the same size. As far as history of spokes, I really have no idea. The guy I bought bike from, said it was his fathers and he was just cleaning out his stuff. I have looked at the spoke ends and had I seen (for eg.) five spoke ends that were not out as far and five spoke ends that were out 1-2 mm, then I would take it apart again and switch those spokes. But alas, there are only some that stick out and the rest look about the same. My plan is just to get the bike 'running' for now and make sure gears work. I have 406 wheels for now, but will look at changing to 451's so that I might find some newer brakes that will work. I also think I will look at replacing front forks with something that is standard 100mm and not 90mm and getting the BB re-threaded to accept standard 24tpi and not Raleighs 26tpi (I did find a shop that has done this before). I'll do it bit by bit and hopefully will learn along the way. I've already learned that I gotta be more careful about noting what I have and take better pics before I start taking anythig else apart .

So this could end up being a long term project

3alarmer 

L8Guy:

I am among the people here who are admirers/users of
older raleigh 3 speeds. Certainly mine probably gets
more regular use than any of the numerous road bikes
hanging in the garage. Here is a link to my own wheeled
creation :

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=#post11759990

which I include not so much to brag as to
demonstrate some possibilities. There are
other approaches ( like 700c rims and tires,
instead of the 26" rims and Schwalbes I've
chosen.)

This, however, raises some concern in me. Certainly
it is possible to refork one of these, but you have to
be pretty careful in choosing a replacement or you
will alter the trail --and therefor the handling -- often
to the detriment of the riding characteristics. Most
guys who want to use standard 100mm front hubs
just cold set the existing fork. But I'm still using
my original Raleigh hub laced into the new alloy rim
and after many many miles, notice no appreciable wear.

With regard to rethreading the BB, my advice would be don't
and I would be wary of any shop that offers to do this
for you. Raleigh BBs are, besides the proprietary threading,
a different width, so you're still gonna have to find longer
spindles to fit it. I personally would not do this because
you're not cutting the hole any larger, like you would if
you rethreaded Italian. You're just kind of pushing the
existing threads around. It may seem at first like the standard
cups now fit, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have
some trouble staying put when you install and use them.

This is a stellar idea. The original equipment brakes on most
of these are horrendous.

But to get back to your original question, if you only have
a couple of mm sticking out here and there, grind away.
This happens all the time in wheel building, even to the
experienced. Anybody who tells you their wheels never
have a few spoke ends protruding after final tensioning
is either calculating their spokes too short, undertensioning,
using some sort of rim configuration that has a hollow
chamber below the rim tape track, or the luckiest guy
I've ever heard of.

Respectfully,
Mike Larmer

p.s. These Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs are not
that hard to overhaul. You need good light, a clean
workbench, and a clear diagram with instructions:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html

Jeff Wills

This used to be a common situation back when we built rear wheels with one length of spokes and the right-side spokes ended poking through the tops of the nipples due to dish. Our shop had a grinder that was dressed down to the right width to fit between the rim's walls. It made quick work of any excess length. A Dremel will certainly work, but not quickly.

(That grinding wheel also took a chunk out of my left index finger. It eventually healed fine, but it left a nice scar.)

JohnDThompson 

You could easily cold-set the fork to 100mm.

I wouldn't bother with that. If you're itchin' to get a new cotterless crank on there, just use the old cups with a new spindle:


If the original cups are worn to the point they need replacement you can just use a cheap threadless BB cartridge instead. But those cups are pretty tough, so try to re-use them first.

wmodavis

Yeah, but the key is that you learned! If you hadn't done it what would you have learned. Next time you'll move on to learn new and exciting information and lessons. Actually not a bad way to learn IMO.

Kimmo 

When you relaced the wheel, did you bend the outer spokes in a bit so they made it to the rim without flexing? If so, it doesn't matter that you mixed up the inners and outers much at all.