Building my first wheel set.
 

Hi Mechanics Forum!

I'm currently purchasing parts, one by one for my first complete build which I am going to be doing myself at the Local Bike Co-Op. I'm going to be doing everything myself, including building the wheels, which im trying to build a pretty sweet set of, when you do bang to buck ratio.

It's going to be a fixed gear wheel set. I'm aiming for strong, yet light wheels and I was hoping you, wonderful knowledge people could give me input on what is risking too much in terms of strength vs weight.

I know which Rims I want to use. 32 rear, 28 front Kinlin XR 300 clinchers.
and either Formula Fixed/Fixed rear and Novatech front, or Formula front for symmetry.

My real concerns come down to the Spokes/nipples. I'd love to build up a very light set of wheels and use light parts IE thin, double/triple butted spokes and aluminum nipples however I don't know if they will provide the durability I need. This build is primarily meant to be a more aggressive alternative to my current bike which I want to turn into more of a commuter style build. It will not be ridden terribly hard but it will end up going off a curb occasionally and likely hitting some potholes if they cannot be avoided.

Could you suggest some combinations of light spokes/nipples that would be suitable for these needs?

I hoover around 200lbs depending on how devoted I am to eating healthy and how much i'm riding, so i do plan on a triple cross rear, but would Radial be safe up front?

Thanks in advance for all of your help!

For your first wheels stick to Brass nipples, and spokes no thinner than 14/16g double butted.

While they're just about as strong as brass in use, alloy nipples are more prone to spoke wrench damage and rounding, and as a newbie add another complicarion you can do without.

Same logic regarding thinner spokes, which are more prone to twisting during building, and are enough of a pain that even experienced builders prefer to avoid them.

This is your first pair of wheels, and you'll face enough challenges without going out of your way to make it more difficult. Stick to the basics, and understand that it's easier to walk after you've mastered crawling.

XR-300 are lightweight aero racing clinchers...just like an Open Pro is a lightweight racing clincher. Strong is not their strong point.

Want a 30mm deep aero rim that is "reasonably" light AND strong?

- Velocity DeepV
- KinLin MX2G

Use double butted 2.0/1.8/2.0 or straight 14g stainless steel spokes (DT, Wheelsmith, Sapim, CNSpoke, Phil) with brass nipples.

For the Velocity DeepV - use 14mm brass nipples and an ERD of 581mm. (Keeps spoke a tad shorter for 14mm nipples...)
For the KinLin MX2g use 12mm brass nipples and an ERD of 582mm.

If you really want to go light - then go with the Mavic CXP-33 - at least it has internal ferrules for a little reinforcement. It is however a light weight racing aero clincher - but I much prefer it over an Open Pro.

The Novatec hubs - a.k.a., Dimension, a.k.a. Raleigh, a.k.a., Formula, a.k.a., Godspeed, a.k.a., All-City, a.k.a., SOMA, a.k.a., whatever the latest label is being put on the same track hubs - are absolute utter crap. Bad and inconsistent machining, strip happy cog threading, cheap bearings, and hollow low grade material excessively drilled axles that with one lb. too much torque on the mounting bolt results in a snapped axle at the locknut.

If you are on a budget - Origin8 or the Weinmann version. Stay away from the BTI distributed Quando made DQ9F / DQ9R unless you like play in modern cartridge bearings.

If you can afford a little more hub (15.00-20.00 per hub) money - take a look at Halo (Chosen) hubs with nickel-chromo axles with reinforced shoulders, Japanese bearings with retainer clips, machined alloy end caps, and traditional steel track serrated mounting nuts.


=8-)

+1. Brass nipples are much stronger during the wheel build, and won't add significant weight. Double butted 2.0/1.8/2.0 stainless steel spokes (Use DT if you can afford it) are ideal in my opinion. They build great wheels and allow for sufficient spoke tension with minimal twisting. Also, use spoke prep!

If you use a good spoke wrench, one that holds all four corners of the nipples, you should not have a problem with DT Swiss aluminum alloy nipples. They're all I use and I have not had a problem with them after buying a Spokey red spoke wrench.
I also recommend DT 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0 Competition spokes. Double butted or skinny straight gauge spokes are much more prone to wind up but they are worth the trouble. As I reach higher tension and the spoke start twisting, I hold each spoke with pliers.

With all of four and a half wheels under my belt, let me offer my opinions.

1. I definitely agree about the brass nipples. I recently had to replace some damaged spokes on an Ultegra/Open Pro wheel (my half-wheel build). I had rounded off a couple of the nipples truing the wheel before I replaced the spokes, and when I broke the wheel down I found significant corrosion on a few of the alloy nipples, so I replaced them all with brass.

2. I built my first set of wheels with double-butted spokes and later used straight gauge spokes for my second build. It's crazy how much easier the process is with straight gauge spokes. If I were rebuilding the first set today, I'd still probably choose double-butted spokes because they suited the purpose and I have a little better idea what I'm doing now, but if I were back in the position of doing my first build, I don't know. That said, double butted are apparently both stronger and lighter.

3. I've got a pair of wheels with the Formula hubs, and I've never had any problems with them. I'm not convinced they're the same as the Novatecs. Both seem to show up under many different brands, but a number of people seem to believe they're different.

4. My fixed gear wheelset has Mavic CXP-22 rims, and I've been very happy with them. I've also had no problems with my Open Pros. I've used both sets (both 32-spoke 3-cross) for cyclocross racing and commuting and generally beat the crap out of them, and they take it. Like you, I weigh around 200 pounds. I have no opinion positive or negative about the rims you planned to use, but I can say I would recommend either of the afore mentioned Mavics.

5. When hitting unseen potholes, it's usually the front wheel that takes the shot. I'm not sure I'd want radial lacing for the kind of riding you describe.

Thanks for the heads up andry!

I didn't notice how bad LA rodes were until I started considering how I'm going to build my wheels. But there's quite a few sections of my commute where the rode are in pretty gnarly shape. So probably a triple cross front as well.

I've ridden the same DT 2.0/1.5 Revolution front + rear non-drive side spokes and DT Competition 2.0/1.8 drive side with alloy nipples for 10-14 years. They're on the second front rim and second or third rear; I don't remember if I replaced the last slightly bent crashed rear rim or just decided that the tension and trueness were good enough. I did replace four twisted nipples on the front wheel when I put a new rim on this year which probably got damaged in an on-road repair. They work great in an arid environment with minimal road salt (in Colorado we figured that since god put the snow there he could take it back) in rims with sockets/eyelets provided that you use anti-seize on the threads and lubricate the spoke/rim interface. I have no clue how they hold up in more corrosive environments. The nipples seem harder to turn in my one non-eyeleted wheel built by someone else; I don't know if that's a lubrication problem or inherent and will use Sapim nipple washers when I build such a wheel.

In theory the Revolutions should work as well on the rear drive side - I build that to the same tension as the front so windup wouldn't be more of an issue, and the elbows are the same size as the Competition spokes so fatigue life should be the same.

1. If you don't have a good spoke wrench properly seated you will round off bad nipples and may twist good ones and/or turn them into non-square parallelograms.

2. Windup is much more of an issue. A piece of tape on a representative spoke in each group (front, drive-side, non-drive side) will show you how much windup you need to undo as tension goes up.

>Could you suggest some combinations of light spokes/nipples that would be suitable for these needs?

DT Revolutions. DT alloy nipples are not as soft as some.

DT Aerolites start life as a 2.0/1.5 butted spoke but are then formed into a more aerodynamic shape. Best price I've found was $3.15 a spoke versus $.70 for Revolutions and you need a holder. I'll try those for fun.

It depends on the hub.

You don't need any sort of sticky goo provided that you tension your wheels enough and the increased friction is going to cause more wind-up.

Even on the non-drive side of Campagnolo wheels (the longer freehub body moves the drive side flange inward so non-drive side tension is lower than with a Shimano wheel).

Even when lubricating things properly ( I use anti-seize on the spoke threads and a drop of machine oil in each nipple socket).

To each their own... however I use spoke prep not due to the protect against the possibilty of spokes backing out. You are definitely correct - for a properly built wheel with sufficient spoke tension, that will not be a problem.

The reason I like it is it works as a great dry, permanent lubricant (its not gooey when it actually comes to building the wheel, it dries on the spoke threads within a matter of minutes after applying). In my experience it allows for better truing at high tension with less binding between spoke and nipple. Also, it makes future adjustments a breeze, even years down the road.

I agree. These are the reasons I use spoke prep, not to lock the nipples, quite the opposite. The same is true for blue Locktite. I buy spokes from my LBS. The mechanic will dip the threads in spoke prep at no cost if I ask for it. It dries on the spokes before I leave the store. There is no gooey mess.

+1 use tape flags if you're using DB spokes, that's a great tip.

As an alternative, you can use an alligator clip. It's easy to take on an off.
Plus, with the clip on the spoke you're currently working on, when you drop the nipple wrench or see they left the windows open at the sorority house next door, you don't risk losing your place if your attention wanders.

Once Again, Marketing Trumps Mechanics
 

:trainwreck:

avner:

You are, like many of us, on the horns of a dilemma.
It appears that from what you have seen/read you are
pretty well convinced that if you just find the magic
super spoke and nipple combination (lightweight ones
at that) that you should be able to make this work.

I weigh about 220-230#. I really don't think,based on
personal experience, that you are going to be able to
build 28 spoke wheels that will go off curbs and hit
significant potholes without going cattywhumpus on
a pretty regular basis. 32 hole is a stretch, but possibly
doable. Why does no one in your generation embrace
the 36 spoke wheel?

With the possible exception of

it seems to me that you have been given
a great deal of good advice here-particularly
considering this is your first wheel build.
There is an additional stretch issue with
thinner and butted spokes that you would
not encounter with straight gauge, but
it's all learning experience - thus all good.

I would be very interested in a report back on
what you finally decide to put together.
If nothing else, your wheels as originally
proposed here will give you a great deal
of continuing practice in retruing them.

Regards,
Mike Larmer

What if you don't have experience? Could you in theory build the wheel without spoke prep then use some once it is built? I'm thinking they might be hard to turn after you put on spoke prep then you wouldn't be able to adjust your wheel properly.

Spoke prep goes on the spoke threads before the wheel is even laced - it is the first step. There is no way to apply it after the wheel is built. As shown in this thread, its not necessary to use spoke prep. However from my experience I have found that it helps building the wheel, especially for first timers. It makes turning the nipples easier at higher tension because it decreases abrasion between the threads of the spoke and the nipple. In my opinion, wheel adjustments actually become easier with the aid of spoke prep. I have built about a dozen wheel sets at this point - I've tried building wheels a couple times without spoke prep and while the end quality of the wheel build was still just as good, the time put in and adjustments needed were definitely increased.

Where you using any kind of lube when you didn't use spoke prep? Like the OP, I'm about to build my first wheelset as well so I'm trying to learn all I can.

Linseed oil is the time tested traditional spoke thread lubricant and setting fluid. I would not hesitate to use it. The only reason I haven't is because My LBS dips my spoke threads in spoke prep at no cost to me.

I used ProGold PG2000, a good penetrating lube. It was handy, and worked just fine.

Those who are talking about using spoke prep, do you use it only on one side? I read quickly on the sheldonbrown website that he mentions only lubricating spokes on one side.

Spoke prep, glues, etc, are unnecessary. Properly tension a wheel to begin with, even today's rear wheels with extreme asymetrical offset and it'll be fine. The "glues" are handy to cover loose spokes residing in a flat spot area to buy time. Not everyone for various reasons can drop off a wheel for a rebuild right away.

=8-)

Yeah, thanks for that. When I looked at the $31 price of the spoke prep I practically crapped. I mean, I found my Tiagra rear hub on sale for $19.10 and the WTB Freedom Ryder 23 rim on sale for $16.88.

Through the years I've built a good number of wheels - definitely in the hundreds but probably not 1,000. During that time I've gone from using no spoke prep to linseed oil, DT spoke prep, a few with post application loctite and, most recently, bee's wax. I've never just used a lubricant or soaked the nipples in oil. The fact that so many wheel builders have such strongly held, but conflicting opinions, tells me that it probably doesn't make much difference. If it did, they'd have failures and they'd change their spoke prep practices.

During that time the only failures that I've had have been with using linseed oil. It's low on the labor intensive scale but it's the messiest. I've found a secret is to let the wheel "age" for a week or so before riding it.

On all of my most recent builds I've used bee's wax and if I were building a set today, that's what I would do again. I think that it's a little btter than anything else. Last spring I took apart a wheelset that I'd built a couple of years ago using bee's wax on the spoke threads. I liked the uniform way that the spokes felt while I was tensioning the wheel and I liked the way the smooth, uniform way the nipples felt when I deconstructed the wheelset. It's also the most labor intensive. I heat up the spoke threads with a hair drier and roll each one individually in a block of bee's wax.

With a rear wheel, do you only put bee's wax for spokes on one side?

If you didn't have a hair dryer, what would be your second choice? Would you use anything out of the ordinary like Crisco or butter?

I bee's wax on every spoke. Male and female threads never fit perfectly. The idea of using a thread prep is to fill in the voids and keep the parts from wiggling around. Bee's wax is good because it stays plastic.

If you could see me you'd realize that I don't own a hair dryer. I use my wife's. If I didn't have one I'd probably preheat the spokes in the oven @ about 175 degrees but then I'd have to wear gloves to handle them. I roll the heated threads on a block of bee's wax to just fill the valleys between threads.

I can't imagine anything good coming from using Crisco or butter. Wheel building is a fairly labor intensive project. Commercially built wheels have become so cheap that the only reason for building your own is to do it as well as you can. Cheaping out on the details doesn't appeal to me.