Which spokes?
 

I'm planning on building a wheel together with a great wheelbuilder at my local bicycle co-op. He says I just need to show up with the materials and he'll walk me through everything else. I'm really excited to learn wheelbuilding. I just need to figure out exactly what components to use.

I've already settled on a rim and hub:
--Hub: Alfine 11 IGH, 32 hole (http://harriscyclery.net/product/shi...tm?preview=yes)
--Rim: 700c WTB Dual Duty FR (http://www.wtb.com/products/wheels/r...ualdutyfr29er/)

My question is, what size spokes do I need? And are there any brands that are especially recommended?

I've never done any wheelbuilding before, and I have no idea how to select the right spokes. If anyone can just tell me, "for that hub and that rim, get _______," I would be eternally grateful. Thanks in advance!

You need to find the ERD of the rim, and the spoke hole diameter and flange width/offset of the hub. Then plug the numbers into a spoke length calculator (like Spokalc) and voila! You get the lengths you need. Just follow the instructions.

Read Sheldon Brown on wheel building. He has a specific section on spoke length calculation.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Check your calculation with the wheelbuilder, and order them through him, to be extra sure you are getting the right ones.

I would like to try wheelbuilding some day. Best to follow your lead, and find a pro to coach me.

+1, get the relevant data and go to the spoke calculator.

As for the brand, it barely matters, all the name brand stainless steel spokes are fine, DT, Sapim, Hoshi, or Wheelsmith, though each has fans and detractors. I suggest you use butted spokes because they build more fatigue resistant wheels, but it's your call whether you want the added cost on your first build.

I also suggest you use lighter spokes on the front and left side rear if the right and left flange offsets (distance from center) differ by 20% or more. For example 14/16db on front and left rear, and 14g plain gauge right side rear. This helps compensate for the tension difference in dished wheels, but may not be an issue with the internal hub.

Last thought, after you've determined length, gauge and brand, you might have the wheelbuilder/teacher review your purchase before you make it. A cvommon theme on this forum is new builders who've bought spokes too long or short.

Well, the ERD of the rim is 599.

The dimensions of the hub are here: http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/hub/190

On the calculator that you linked, is the "width from center to left/right flange" the same thing as "left/right flange offset"? And what cross number do I want? (It'll be disc brakes, so I'm not sure if that affects which pattern I should use)

Thanks for the input so far, folks. My hope is to get as much confirmation/review of my purchase ahead of time from you helpful people.

The offsets are 29.5 (left) and 24 (right). This means that what you're saying about using lighter spokes on the left applies?

In my case, the wheelbuilder is a hipster dude at the bike co-op. I can't do any of the ordering through them--they just have a bunch of donated (and sometimes junky bike parts)--but if I show up with the materials, we build it together. They're great wrenchers, and it's a great environment to hang out and learn all sorts of bike mechanic skills. But it does call for a little more preparation ahead of time on my part than if I were dealing with a well-stocked LBS.

Some hubs are listed as "flange width" and "flange offset". This means symmetrical wheels have an offset of 0, and center to L and center to R is half of total flange width.

On non-symmetrical wheels, you can use "center to R" and "center to L" as-is in the spocalc calculator, for "flange width" and "offset" you'd have to take half the total width, and add/subtract the offset for either side.

At least, that's how it's supposed to work... Oh, also, if you're doing a 32H wheel, you should stick to a standard 3-cross pattern. It's durable and time-tested.

Ok, I think I've got it. Can someone check out my math and make sure it's ok?

The Hub's specs are:
OLN 135 mm
Spoke Hole Diameter 2.9 mm
Left Flange Diameter 93 mm
Right Flange Diameter 93 mm
Left Flange Offset 29.5 mm
Right Flange Offset 24 mm
Weight 1600 g

A diagram of its measurements can be found here: http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/img...f=29.5&rctf=24

The rim's ERD is 599

So on the socalc calculator, I entered:

N, total number of spokes: 32
ERD, effective rim diameter: 599
OSB, offset spoke bed: 0 (******************************?)
WL, width from center to left flange: 29.5
WR, width from center to right flange: 24
dL, left flange diameter: 99
dR, right flange diameter: 99
S, spoke hole diameter: 2.9
X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional): 3

For 3-cross, this gives me:
Left: 284.3
Right: 283.8

Does this make sense? Did I enter everything correctly? And what the heck is an OSB?

Offset Spoke Bed is when you get a rim where the spokes holes aren't in the center... some wide rims, certain disk-specific rims, and so forth have spoke holes that aren't in the dead center of the rim. They can either be both sides further out (for really wide rims, 3" and wider) or disk rims offset both sets of holes to one side. This lets you build a wheel where spokes are closer to the same length on both sides, even if the hub's not centered.

Ok, no OSB here. So does my math check out given the dimensions I listed?

I need 284.3 and 283.8 spokes? I think I've read elsewhere that I should round down--what would I round down to?

Are you sure the hub with 135 mm dropout spacing is correct for you bike frame? More often a bike with 700 mm rims will have 130 mm dropout spacing. Of course 135 mm is possibly correct.

Rounding down is better, especially for the rear wheel drive side spokes. This is because the high tension in the drive side spokes may cause the spokes to stretch a bit. For 283.8 spokes you could go with 283 or 282 mm spokes.

round down to 284 and 283, if it was me I would round the 283.8 uo to 284, therefore use 284 on each side.

Yeah, it's a commuter frame geared towards IGHs, fat tires, fenders, and disc brakes. Definitely 135mm (http://grandrapidsbicycles.com/produ...m2418-qc72.htm).

Thanks again for all of the input, everyone. It sounds like I should either get all 284 spokes or half 284/283 spokes. What about the width? Does it matter? I'm assuming that 1.7s are a little more aero and a little lighter, but 2.0s are a little stronger?

And has anyone double-checked my math?

Something's not right... the hub specs say flange diameter is 93mm, but you put in 99mm? Which one is it?

Sheesh, now you can see why I wanted you guys to double-check my calculations. 93mm is correct.

This gives me 268.8 (left) and 268.3 (right). I assume I'd want to round both of these down to 268?

(And, as you can all see, it probably wouldn't hurt if anyone wanted to take one last look at my calculations...)

http://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php

Grab the spreadsheet...

Use SG-SC31 listing which is close enough.

Set for 16 per side and 3X

-.45 from result for each side to accomodate 2.9mm holes...

285.60 - .45 = 285.15
285.10 - .45 = 284.65

Chances are pretty good that the rim has been measured to the top of the nipple rather the flat...

So as already noted I would go ahead and use all 284.00 spokes with 12mm or 14mm nipples.

If you can get some 2.3 / 2.0 single butted spokes - even entry level CN "mac" spokes would be nice - that would be a lot better in terms of longevity of the spokes at the flanges.

=8-)

If you are going to use 1.7 spokes use double butted 2.0-1.7-2.0 or 2.0-1.8-2.0. It's good to have 2.0 mm at the ends of the spokes.

The flanges are drilled for .105 (2.6mm) guage spokes.

=8-)

Ok, how about DT Alpine 2.34-1.8-2.0?

For the last couple of sets I've used Sapim Race 14/15/14 butted spokes from Bike Tool's Etc. Quality cold forged stainless and they come in bags of 20, which is nice if you need 2 different lengths. At 12.99 a bag, the price is very nice too. I'm a clyde and have been riding these wheels full up touring on the GAP/C&O and they are still dead true.

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...id=SA-RDB14282

IF you feel the need for super bomber spokes they have 13/14 Sapim Strong spokes. (These are also the Phil Wood Spokes) Custom length for $1.25 ea.

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg..._id=SA-SSB13CC

DT Alpine III's (13/15/14 or 2.3, 1.7, 2.0 mm) have been the goto for tourers and tandems for a long time. All the vendors with Alpine III's (13/15/14) seem to have only the Black in boxes of 72 for somewhere just over $80 Harris has stocked these in the past, I'd bet they still do.

Fist off: thanks for all the input everyone!!!

--There are some suggestions for larger gauge spokes (2.3mm, etc.). Is this in any way required because of the large spoke hold diameter (2.9)? Or are the larger gauges just recommended to provide some more longevity/strength?

--I now have two conflicting sets of calculations. Which one is right?!? Using the Sheldon Brown spreadsheet (http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm), I got 268.8 (left) and 268.3 (right) (initially, I had about 284, but this is because I accidentally typed in the wrong flange diameter, as FunkyStickman pointed out). Mrrabbit's numbers put me at 284 (is this because of using my initial wrong flange diameter number?). Can you guys help me sort this out? Again, the hub measurements can be found here: http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/hub/190 and the rim's ERD is 599.

I provided a link to a spreadsheet...use it like I did OP.

=8-)