Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Sturmey-Archer compatibility...

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Sturmey-Archer compatibility...

Old 02-16-11, 02:24 PM
  #1  
Airburst
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: England, currently dividing my time between university in Guildford and home just outside Reading
Posts: 1,921

Bikes: Too many to list here!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Sturmey-Archer compatibility...

I'm looking for a cheap set of Sturmey-Archer 5-speed internals to upgrade the 3-speed SA hub on my folding bike. I've found a 5-speed SA hub on Ebay labelled a "5-speed Sprinter", would the innards from that fit my standard AW shell? Apparently Sheldon did this, I'm just not sure what the donor hub for the 5-speed bits was.

The other problem is that the axle on the hub on Ebay is broken. As the Sprinter is(according to Sheldon) a single-cable model rather than a double-cable one, could I replace its broken axle with the axle out of my 3-speed hub, or is there a difference between the two?

Thanks in advance.
Airburst is offline  
Old 02-16-11, 02:44 PM
  #2  
Carcinogent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well short answer is no. The detailed one is as follows. The 5 speed internals will not fit your shell, they will screw in but the low gear pawls (the ones on the side opposite to the sprocket) will not engage the ratchet that is in the shell. Basically the mechanism is too narrow.

What Sheldon might have done (i recall reading smt like that) is put S5, S5/1 or S5/2 internals into the AW shell, those will fit, however, they are all the 2 cable version.

Also to answer your second question, the axles are not interchangeable between a 3 speed and 5 Speed. Google "sturmey archer+hadland." Tony Hadland's excellent site has original detailed information of all Sturmey hubs, there you can find the part numbers. St. John's Cycles (www.sjscycles.co.uk has a huge array of sturmey spare parts)

So to summarize:

AW shell would fit: AM, FW (four speed), S5, S5/1, S5/2 internals.
FM shell would fit: FC, AF, AC internals (those are overall rare to find but in my opinion have the nicest ratios)

Depending on the reason why you are upgrading you can go couple of separate ways. If you find the gear steps of the AW too big (I did), you can just get AM (3 speed medium ratio) hub or internals and screw them in. Same shifter, cable, steps are about half of AW. Rogerzilla has done that and I have been riding for about 10 months with an AM in my Brompton.

If you need more range, you can buy a 4 speed FW. Fits your AW shell like a glove, however, you need a 4 speed shifter AND a 4 speed indicator (the thing that goes in and out of the axle to switch the gears). The latter two are quite rare and cost more. The gear steps are a little bit smaller than AW but overall the same, you have one more gear on the lower end.

Derek at Oldbiketrader has a lot of the stuff in stock and is a really nice guy to do business with; always worth a shot: www.oldbiketrader.co.uk

Personally the AM is all I need and my own opinion as well as that of others is that the AM is an excellent hub, although I do miss a gear on the low end sometimes. The tinkerer in me though is considering the 4 speed conversion just for the sake of it...

I hope that helps.

-Carcinogent

P.S. I wanted to do the same upgrade as you. I learned (a lot actually) the hard way, and now I have 5 speed trigger and internals in my parts bin =P

Last edited by Carcinogent; 02-16-11 at 02:50 PM.
Carcinogent is offline  
Old 02-16-11, 04:49 PM
  #3  
Airburst
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: England, currently dividing my time between university in Guildford and home just outside Reading
Posts: 1,921

Bikes: Too many to list here!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanks for all the information! You seem to know rather more about these hubs than me! If I might ask more questions, where do the modern internals and shells fit into all this? Would a modern set of 5-speed internals fit my hub? For that matter, would a modern set of 3-speed internals fit a classic AW shell, or have they changed the dimensions?

Also, if I buy a whole used hub, would I have to lace it to a rim in order to get enough of a turning moment to hold the shell still while I unscrew the internals? If so, I forsee an issue with a 40-hole hub shell in my future....
Airburst is offline  
Old 02-16-11, 05:17 PM
  #4  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4362 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Modern SA hubs aren't made by SA but are made in Taiwan. Don't bet on any cross compatibility between modern (Taiwan) and older British hubs. There probably is some interchangeability, but you can't count on it, and Murphy's Law holds - if you count on it firring it won't.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 02-17-11, 12:59 AM
  #5  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 19,420

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20777 Post(s)
Liked 3,768 Times in 2,766 Posts
Originally Posted by Airburst View Post
Also, if I buy a whole used hub, would I have to lace it to a rim in order to get enough of a turning moment to hold the shell still while I unscrew the internals? If so, I forsee an issue with a 40-hole hub shell in my future....
I've overhauled maybe a dozen of the AW hubs
in my lifetime. 3 or 4 or those were bare hubs
(no spokes or rim). You do need a decent bench
vise to hold it while you unscrew the guts.

I admire your ambition, but it might do well
to remember that Mr. Brown had access to
an almost unlimited supply of free or cheap
scrapped parts/bikes. I'm pretty sure he
had a number of experiments that failed,
about which we have little documentation.

They didn't cost him much by way of cash
investment.
3alarmer is offline  
Old 02-17-11, 02:11 AM
  #6  
Carcinogent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have to disagree with FB a little bit. I have successfully converted a modern SRF-3 (read AW) to an AM using internals that are dated before 1950 (i have the gear ring with the intricate spline pattern, rather than the straight splined one). All i did was screw the SRF internals out, screw the new ones in and adjust as per Sheldon's instructions using only the cable tension as an indicator.


Originally Posted by Airburst View Post
Thanks for all the information! You seem to know rather more about these hubs than me! If I might ask more questions, where do the modern internals and shells fit into all this? Would a modern set of 5-speed internals fit my hub? For that matter, would a modern set of 3-speed internals fit a classic AW shell, or have they changed the dimensions?

Also, if I buy a whole used hub, would I have to lace it to a rim in order to get enough of a turning moment to hold the shell still while I unscrew the internals? If so, I forsee an issue with a 40-hole hub shell in my future....
Back to your question as i said modern 5 speed internals will screw in an AW shell but you will not get all gears because they will not engage the internal ratchet of the shell. Modern 3 speed internals should fit older shells. HOWEVER hubs from the 70s and 80s have some trouble with that; not done it myself but others say it is dodgy. It is more a question of threading/machining rather than pure mechanical interchangeability, Sturmey was declining in quality quite significantly by that time.

No you don't need to lace an old hub to a rim in order to unscrew the internals. Bench, vise, hammer and punch is all you need. Read about the general dismantling of SA hubs first. You can't really do any damage, just make sure you are hitting, turning things the right way.

I don't know what for hub do you have, if you can give a little more detail on manufacturing date etc (it is stamped on the shell) I can be a tad more specific. But overall:

New AW --> Old AW No problem (with a caution towards hubs from the 70s-80s)*
Old AW --> New AW Definitely no problem (some people actually like the old oil lubricated mechanisms rather than the modern ones)

Internal mechanism compatibility is obviously the same as I mentioned in my first post.

*old hubs have very thin flanges, therefore requiring spoke washers. The new Taiwan made shells are very well machined, so in my opinion: old internals in a new shell is the better choice.

-Carcinogent
Carcinogent is offline  
Old 02-17-11, 06:35 AM
  #7  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,444

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-11, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i5, 2019 Surly ˝DT14

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 278 Times in 188 Posts
Complications trying to swap the internals in the shells? It's no more money to unlace the three speed hub and lace the five speed back in (reuse the spokes).

Sturmey-Archer five speeds through the years:
S5: 1966-1976 225% overall. LH bellcrank
S5-1: 1977-1981 Twin indicator
S5-2: 1981-1990
5 StAr: 1991-1992 First NIG mechanism. Arguably the worst hub S-A ever released.
Sprinter: 1993-1999 First single cable design.
Summit: 1999-2008 Ball Locking. Last British designed 5-speed.
W: 2009- First Taiwan designed 5-speed 256% overall.

Last edited by tcs; 02-17-11 at 06:40 AM.
tcs is offline  
Old 02-17-11, 06:38 AM
  #8  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,444

Bikes: 1980 Mike Melton, 1982 Stumpjumper, 1982 Santana, 1984 Alex Moulton AM, 2008 BikeFriday tikit T-11, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i5, 2019 Surly ˝DT14

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 278 Times in 188 Posts
Originally Posted by Carcinogent View Post
I have to disagree with FB a little bit.
Well, he was just giving an opinion. You've made an actual measurement.
tcs is offline  
Old 02-17-11, 09:01 AM
  #9  
Carcinogent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Complications trying to swap the internals in the shells? It's no more money to unlace the three speed hub and lace the five speed back in (reuse the spokes).
Or that=) However, wheel rebuilding is usually not the average cyclist's first go to. Although be careful because some 5 speeds give a different (wider) chainline which might be a problem in a folding bike. So at this point if the OP can give a bit more details, it would be helpful. I remember recently seeing a Sprinter Elite drumbrake 5 speed hub with a broken axle on eBay...

-Carcinogent
Carcinogent is offline  
Old 02-17-11, 10:29 AM
  #10  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,310 Times in 823 Posts
I sense the OP doesn't want the drum Brake shell , but wants the 5 gears..
SJS will sell you new stuff, they have 5 speed cores , axles can be bought from them

or the whole hub..

Free shipping within the UK
Some times (ebay) low price is not a bargain ..

[ghost downtowns after Wall-mart builds it's vampire stores , shows that]
fietsbob is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
raftr
Folding Bikes
20
08-08-19 03:57 PM
harshbarj
Bicycle Mechanics
12
01-02-19 07:39 PM
Chris_in_Miami
Classic & Vintage
25
07-11-10 10:20 PM
Carcinogent
Classic & Vintage
3
03-02-10 03:42 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.