When are labor charges unnecessary/excessive?
#26
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As a shop owner with 30 years experience here are my comments. There's missing information. Did the old pedals have to be removed before installing the new ones (Keep in mind it takes a special tool to do the job and was it a TruVativ crankset)? Was other work suspended to do the job and was a stand available or did they have to wrestle the bike? Did you pay full mark up on the pedals or were they on sale or discounted? In days past when shops were able to charge MSRP there was some margin for free installations without losing money. The job cost much less than than the price of the special tool (Which could be a pedal wrench or a 6 or 8 mm hex wrench, and don't forget lubing the threads).
Was the bolt "you" broke on the rack or was it broken off on the frame? Small 4mm or 5mm broken bolts can be very difficult to remove (Easy Out type tools only work well on larger bolts and other methods like Dremeling a groove or drilling are dicey) and a bunch of the time was probably spent trying not to damage the rack or frame. Did you drop off the rack/frame so the job could be slotted into the workload or did you wait around so everyone had to stop what they were doing to try and help you out? Sometimes you fail and have to refer the customers to a machine shop, but you tried to fix "their" mistake and save them money, so the attempt is worth something. At the very least you should have beat them to punch and offered the shop something for their effort.
Regardless, all this only cost you $15 - $18, and I guarantee you it cost the shop more than that. In my experience, shops do try their best to provide great service & reasonable prices and promote good will, especially for steady customers, but it works both ways. In this case you owe the shop at least a 12-pack of micro beer for thinking badly of them. And I'll bet they won't charge you for a small job next time
Was the bolt "you" broke on the rack or was it broken off on the frame? Small 4mm or 5mm broken bolts can be very difficult to remove (Easy Out type tools only work well on larger bolts and other methods like Dremeling a groove or drilling are dicey) and a bunch of the time was probably spent trying not to damage the rack or frame. Did you drop off the rack/frame so the job could be slotted into the workload or did you wait around so everyone had to stop what they were doing to try and help you out? Sometimes you fail and have to refer the customers to a machine shop, but you tried to fix "their" mistake and save them money, so the attempt is worth something. At the very least you should have beat them to punch and offered the shop something for their effort.
Regardless, all this only cost you $15 - $18, and I guarantee you it cost the shop more than that. In my experience, shops do try their best to provide great service & reasonable prices and promote good will, especially for steady customers, but it works both ways. In this case you owe the shop at least a 12-pack of micro beer for thinking badly of them. And I'll bet they won't charge you for a small job next time
#27
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If your a good cutomer the pedal replacement should have been done for free, provided the old ones weren't frozen to the cranks. I would have charged for the broken bolt. That takes time, special tools and experience.
#28
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If it was my shop, I would have done the pedals for free, but I would have charged you on the rack. But it is up to the individual shop to decide.
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Agreed. My pedal wrench is actually a long piece of tool steel I milled out. However, for the frequency that I suspect the OP changes pedals, I suspect a cheap wrench (and pipe/rag if needed) will be more than he needs. I'm also willing to assume that the pedals have wrench flats.
#30
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I don't charge for pedal installs or removal unless I have to get a breaker bar. I own my own tools and maybe some tool got broken in the process, I would let you know I did break a tool but still N/C as not fixed. I would go back and see a manager to explain what happened and to apply the labor fee to a new rack.
#31
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As a mechanic, I am dumbfounded by how many people expect you to do minor jobs for free. I will usually do pedal install, minor derailer adjustment etc. on the spot for free, but come on people, my time is worth money. If I chose to charge people for every repair, however small, performed on their bikes, I would totally be within my right.
Not charging money for minor stuff is a way of bringing in future business/service to long time customers. I am almost sure this is a bicycle industry only thing. People wouldn't hink twice about a car mechanic charging for small stuff...
Not charging money for minor stuff is a way of bringing in future business/service to long time customers. I am almost sure this is a bicycle industry only thing. People wouldn't hink twice about a car mechanic charging for small stuff...
#32
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I certainly think that payment for any sort of labor should be customary. The fact that mechanics or shops can throw in freebie labor to earn goodwill shouldn't lead to an expectation of this. It's not like bike mechanics are earning investment banker fees; every little job matters in terms of the shop keeping the lights on and the workers making their rents.
On the other hand, negotiating labor costs after the fact is kind of silly and is probably what led to this whole thread. The buyer simply clarifying, "How much will that be?" before the wrench lays hands on your bike will reduce stress for everyone involved. Then it would be known if the charge would be $10 for a successful job or $60/hour or whatever else. Of course, the wrench volunteering a price before starting the work would do the same thing and require fewer people to change their habits.
On the other hand, negotiating labor costs after the fact is kind of silly and is probably what led to this whole thread. The buyer simply clarifying, "How much will that be?" before the wrench lays hands on your bike will reduce stress for everyone involved. Then it would be known if the charge would be $10 for a successful job or $60/hour or whatever else. Of course, the wrench volunteering a price before starting the work would do the same thing and require fewer people to change their habits.
#33
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I've done a lot of consulting engineering work and it is not uncommon to get a call for a "quick question" months, even years after the project has closed out.
At the butcher shop, or fish market, they generally don't charge any extra to trim or grind the meat.
My pediatrician maintains a hotline we can call off hours for free for medical advice for our children.
I'm sure I could think of plenty of other examples.
Paul
#34
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Bike shop mechanics, employees or owners:
I'm just trying to figure out if I'm being unfair. I have a LBS nearby who I've liked well enough, but I've recently had two experiences that have not exactly made me happy.
First, I bought a pair of pedals and was charged an install charge. They weren't super expensive, around $40, but it took all of 5 minutes to put them on. Is that normal? Or should I be acknowledging that 5 minutes of labor is still worth a ($6-$8) fee?
Second, I brought in a front rack that I (idiotically) broke off a hex bolt head in. They spent 30 minutes trying to get the bolt extracted and failed. Then, they awkwardly asked if I'd mind a $10 charge for their time. I accepted quietly, but I'm kind of pissed off about it.
I really want to be fair, so let me know if these types of labor charges should be expected or if I'm being a tightwad. I don't think they were appropriate, but I'm sensitive to the fact that they're running a small business.
I'm just trying to figure out if I'm being unfair. I have a LBS nearby who I've liked well enough, but I've recently had two experiences that have not exactly made me happy.
First, I bought a pair of pedals and was charged an install charge. They weren't super expensive, around $40, but it took all of 5 minutes to put them on. Is that normal? Or should I be acknowledging that 5 minutes of labor is still worth a ($6-$8) fee?
Second, I brought in a front rack that I (idiotically) broke off a hex bolt head in. They spent 30 minutes trying to get the bolt extracted and failed. Then, they awkwardly asked if I'd mind a $10 charge for their time. I accepted quietly, but I'm kind of pissed off about it.
I really want to be fair, so let me know if these types of labor charges should be expected or if I'm being a tightwad. I don't think they were appropriate, but I'm sensitive to the fact that they're running a small business.
2. You bought the pedals there.
If you have either one of those going for you an installation charge for pedals is bogus. If it were my shop, a new customer purchases a part elsewhere and brings it to me to install, I would charge you for the labor (even a simple pedal install) and point out that if you had bought it from me I would have installed for free. If you had bought things from me in the past, even if the pedals came from somewhere else free installation would be a no-brainer.
IMO the fact that you've bought things there regularly in the past + you even bought the pedals there... I would have taken it as a slap in the face to be charged for something that takes a "pro" bike shop mechanic literally 60 seconds to do. That's how you take a regular customer and turn them into a non-customer. Shady.
The rack job could go either way. Yes, they worked on it for 1/2 hour and nobody likes to work for free. No, they didn't actually provide a service to you in the fact that you left their shop with the same stuck bolt that you came in with. I don't see how in the world a broken-off bolt takes 30 minutes to not remove. You know it's not coming out with the tools you -don't- have in about 10 seconds. Then again, if they said they gave it their best shot for 1/2 hour I guess you owe them something for their time.
I know I wouldn't give a dentist my money if he worked on extracting a tooth for 1/2 hour just to have me leave his office with the same broken tooth I walked in with. JMO.
#35
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While I don't think the charges were necessarily out of line, and I don't think you have a real beef... at the same time, I don't think they are wise on the part of the shop.
I don't think that shop has a clear grasp of the concept of "marketing" the "experience".
In other words, fair or not, you still don't much feel like going back to the shop. How not to compete with bike-stuff-at-low-prices.com.
I don't think that shop has a clear grasp of the concept of "marketing" the "experience".
In other words, fair or not, you still don't much feel like going back to the shop. How not to compete with bike-stuff-at-low-prices.com.
#36
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Basically as a consumer, you should expect to pay for any service you are either unwilling or unable to perform for yourself. Never expect it to be free.
That said, small businesses are all about the relationship. Mechanics are like anyone- they respond well to people who act like they care. A $9 six pack of decent beer will surely buy you several times that amount of goodwill labor when you need a quick job done. Many don't understand this simple idea.
Our simple rule is if you bought the bike from us, all minor tweaks are free as long as YOU own it. Not your buddy who buys your used stuff! Little things like pedal swaps and simple accessory installs are charged only when the parts didn't come from us. Nothing more quickly identifies you as a leech than to walk in with mail order pedals, computer, cages, etc, and expect everything to be dropped because you have a big event coming up and need us to just "toss 'em on there for you".
As for the bolt, being up front is everything. Our usual speech at this point is "if you want us to try and remove it, we are happy to attempt it, but due to the nature of the repair, we cannot guarantee success. Our normal labor rate for this type of job is $X and is charged for our time. We should have a pretty good idea in the first 15 minutes if it's gonna budge, and if it looks bad, we'll call you and you can decide how you want to proceed at that time."
I think that's only fair. But I will tell you I value people's time. I do all my own repair work on my car but sometimes I run into a difficult diagnosis. I could take it to a shop and pretend I was going to let them do the work and get my diagnoses for free, but instead I find a mechanic I trust and offer him $20 to drive my car. I get an open honest appraisal and happily pay because it has saved me lots of money in the past. And, I'm not viewed as a bottom feeding leech, but as someone who values these people and their time/knowledge.
Just treat your mechanic like you'd want to be treated and the rest usually takes care of itself......
That said, small businesses are all about the relationship. Mechanics are like anyone- they respond well to people who act like they care. A $9 six pack of decent beer will surely buy you several times that amount of goodwill labor when you need a quick job done. Many don't understand this simple idea.
Our simple rule is if you bought the bike from us, all minor tweaks are free as long as YOU own it. Not your buddy who buys your used stuff! Little things like pedal swaps and simple accessory installs are charged only when the parts didn't come from us. Nothing more quickly identifies you as a leech than to walk in with mail order pedals, computer, cages, etc, and expect everything to be dropped because you have a big event coming up and need us to just "toss 'em on there for you".
As for the bolt, being up front is everything. Our usual speech at this point is "if you want us to try and remove it, we are happy to attempt it, but due to the nature of the repair, we cannot guarantee success. Our normal labor rate for this type of job is $X and is charged for our time. We should have a pretty good idea in the first 15 minutes if it's gonna budge, and if it looks bad, we'll call you and you can decide how you want to proceed at that time."
I think that's only fair. But I will tell you I value people's time. I do all my own repair work on my car but sometimes I run into a difficult diagnosis. I could take it to a shop and pretend I was going to let them do the work and get my diagnoses for free, but instead I find a mechanic I trust and offer him $20 to drive my car. I get an open honest appraisal and happily pay because it has saved me lots of money in the past. And, I'm not viewed as a bottom feeding leech, but as someone who values these people and their time/knowledge.
Just treat your mechanic like you'd want to be treated and the rest usually takes care of itself......
#37
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Once I stopped with my bike at a local bike store and bought a pair of brakes pads. When I asked the guy for pliers so I can pull out the pins and insert the new pads he said that he is going to charge me for labor for letting me using his pliers for 10 seconds.
On the other hand, I went once to local Performance to buy a Park Tool FR-5 but they had only FR-5G which did not fit my bike. The mechanic spent 10 minutes or so modifying it to look like a FR-5 and did not charge me a penny.
Guess which of the two store I keep frequenting.
My experience is that large chains like Performance and REI are less likely to nickel and dime you and are more oriented toward long term customer retention. Maybe this is why they are large.
On the other hand, I went once to local Performance to buy a Park Tool FR-5 but they had only FR-5G which did not fit my bike. The mechanic spent 10 minutes or so modifying it to look like a FR-5 and did not charge me a penny.
Guess which of the two store I keep frequenting.
My experience is that large chains like Performance and REI are less likely to nickel and dime you and are more oriented toward long term customer retention. Maybe this is why they are large.
#38
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There is no right and wrong here, and consumers are not magically entitled to freebies, any more than they'd be entitled to free beers at the bar.
OTOH, many shops make judicious use of freebies for minor work as builders of goodwill, and recipients of these should be appreciative of a lagniappe, and not feel entitled to it.
Eons ago when I was in retail, we stickered all the bikes we sold, and folks who rolled in one of those needing only a minor tweak often got it free. They also got priority for service having fairly quick jobs done on the spot, even if we were very busy. Without the decal things were different unless we recognized you as a regular customer, and we tended to be tighter on freebies.
A bartender friend of mine told me his rule about free drinks. Pour a freebie for a regular every once in a while and it made him feel appreciated, but if you did it too often he'd take it for granted, come to expect it, and if you didn't you were a bum (the prior freebies forgotten). I think that makes sense for the bike shop.
Freebies and beyond expectation service once in a while makes friends, do it often enough and it's an entitlement, and stopping makes enemies.
OTOH, many shops make judicious use of freebies for minor work as builders of goodwill, and recipients of these should be appreciative of a lagniappe, and not feel entitled to it.
Eons ago when I was in retail, we stickered all the bikes we sold, and folks who rolled in one of those needing only a minor tweak often got it free. They also got priority for service having fairly quick jobs done on the spot, even if we were very busy. Without the decal things were different unless we recognized you as a regular customer, and we tended to be tighter on freebies.
A bartender friend of mine told me his rule about free drinks. Pour a freebie for a regular every once in a while and it made him feel appreciated, but if you did it too often he'd take it for granted, come to expect it, and if you didn't you were a bum (the prior freebies forgotten). I think that makes sense for the bike shop.
Freebies and beyond expectation service once in a while makes friends, do it often enough and it's an entitlement, and stopping makes enemies.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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#39
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Since most people wont/can't think of it as "WOW, this top level mechanic just saved me time, therefore I will reward him/her for their abilities"! Instead they go "WHAAAA? It only took you 3 minutes and now you're going to CHARGE ME?"
So, we end up NOT doing quickie work like that and instead say "come back in an hour". In the customer's mind an hour went past, so somehow it's worth paying for now.
Had a guy a few years back bring in a rear wheel with internal spoke nipples for a "quick true". I had just removed a bike from the rack and thought this customer would appreciate fast service. After removing the tire, tube and rim tape, and producing the correct tool to get to the non-standard spoke nipples, I used my tensiometer to give the wheel a quick check and determined the wheel could be effectively trued. I then straightened the wheel in my pro-quality stand, and then quickly stress relieved it, remounted the tire and tube and rim strip and inflated the tire. All this took 5-6 minutes because I am accustomed to working at a good clip and pride myself on getting it right the first time.
His response as I walked over to the register? "You're gonna charge me for that?" He had to go out to the car to get his wallet! He had assumed it would be free.
So now, I have to say "come back in a hour".
#40
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The correct response to "Can I get a quick true?" would be "Of course. We charge..." $10 for wheel truing, or $60/hour, or whatever the shop's price is. The important thing is to be firm and matter-of-fact. A board with the customary rates goes a long way toward holding the line so the customer doesn't think he or she is being swindled.
I used to be a schoolteacher. As a teacher you learn extremely quickly to be firm and consistent, because you have 30 kids trying to negotiate with you at the same time, and all of them act like the customer who wanted a free truing. Believe me, this works.
I used to be a schoolteacher. As a teacher you learn extremely quickly to be firm and consistent, because you have 30 kids trying to negotiate with you at the same time, and all of them act like the customer who wanted a free truing. Believe me, this works.