unterhausen

I remember the first stand I used with dials. I don't remember what it was, but you had to use the dials, no sound. Drove me nuts, the shop offered me a job, I turned them down. Now that my eyes aren't as good, I might be happier with dials.

Mr. Fly

Nice mod! But if I'm going to switch between axles sizes all day, I'll get two truing stands!


Actually, it's not only the wheel moving about the truing stand uprights. Cup-n-cone hubs, such as all the Shimano models and nicer Campagnolo models, will have a bit of axle play when unclamped, to accommodate for the skewer's clamping in the goal of achieving the correct bearing preload as installed on the bike. This axle play is very small at the hub, but the effect is magnified at the rim. Thus, if you're talking about 0.1mm or less, you better take into account this effect and either mess with the cone adjust before and after truing, or jury-rig a Sheldon Brown device to remove the axle play.

mechBgon

I understand your point. When using the dial indicator (which is basically never), the dial indicator's return spring holds the rim to one side of that "play range" fairly well, at least for a road wheel that doesn't have a lot of mass. When truing by sight & sound (basically always), I habitually do the same thing by tracing my left index finger against the rim at the feeler, which also helps sight the gap between the feeler and rim, by putting the feeler in shadow.


(from my YouTube bike-assembly time-lapse video)

Where I do use a dial gauge, and find it crucial to immobilize the hub in the truing stand so the zero point can be arbitrarily maintained, is when truing disc rotors with the Park Tool DT-3i add-on. So I keep a pair of skewers around for that role, allowing me to set a baseline zero point, then find deviations and bend them into the zero plane as closely as practical.

For those who've never seen the DT-3i doodad, here's a pic, it bolts into the hole partway up the left upright. I should add that the DT-3 (the non-dial apparatus that the dial's mounted on) is a prerequisite for the DT-3i.

eddy m

I like using dials, but as I get better at building, I find myself using straight edges for references more often. (IMO straight edges are easier to use than either dials or calipers.) I still measure every wheel I do and keep a record, just because I'm not really sure how strong and stable my wheels actually are. I do a whole quality control program on every wheel I build, and occasionally re-measure to see if the wheels is stable. After I build a couple of hundred wheels, I'll relax a little, and put away the dials. At my current rate of production, that will take about 150 years.
I have Racelite manual that says 10 thousands (0.4 mm) is the tolerance, and I find that pretty easy to get with new rims. When I get that close I switch to balancing tension. I doubt many production wheels are that true and round.
My homemade tools work better for me than Park stuff, but they probably require too much set up time and look too klugie for a pro shop.

em

mixtemaniac

I appreciate all the responses. This thread has been a great read!

Booger1

You don't need high dollar dials for this.They need to read only,not measure.Go to Harbour Freight and buy 2 for $10.They will read in 1000ths.Plenty good enough for truing wheels.

That's what Park does,trust me,those are not Starrett or Mitutoyo dial gauges or they would be $500 dollars.

svtmike

I use a Spin Doctor truing stand mounted to the miter slot of my table saw, with a couple of dial gauges on magnetic bases for true and round. I get the wheel close with the cheesy plastic feelers on the truing stand, and then finish it up with the dial gauges. It's a nice, cheap accurate setup at $40 for the stand and $30 a piece for the dial gauges and bases (ignoring the cost of the saw of course).

I spend most of my wheelbuilding time though checking and rechecking spoke tensions to make sure they're nice and even. I find the gauge for round very useful since the mechanism on the truing stand has a tremendous amount of lash to it and is difficult to use precisely as a result.

Soil_Sampler

I find that hard to believe for a cheap machine built wheel.

unterhausen

I just trued up a machine built wheel that might have been spec'd to .5mm, but it was definitely over 1mm out.

mechBgon

Had another seriously out-of-round wheel on a ~$400 hybrid bike I was assembling. Ok fine... remove tire, bust out the dial gauge, quantify the problem, send complaint to Large Bicycle Company's QC people so they can ignore it properly, fix the problem and move on.

In this case, it was about 1.2mm out of round, which doesn't sound like that much, but it's pretty obvious when the wheel's spinning next to a brake pad. I could understand ~0.3mm for a commodity bike like that, but not 1mm or more.

Sixty Fiver

Threw a new off the peg entry wheel on my stand yesterday and it had 70 / 1000 variance... the Formula / Alex 2100 that I used on my hybrid for my cross wheels and off road adventuring was 5 by 5 after many thousands of hard kilometres.

That is 5/1000 by 5/1000.

My rig... worked as a machinist and dial indicators there read in 1/1000 increments and with high quality parts can build a wheel to a 5/1000 tolerance that will stay that way although 10/1000 is within tolerances.

My lower dial has been through a lot but is still accurate... have marked off the 5/1000 increments and use it for vertical truing... will replace it eventually.

Nothing fancy but highly accurate when it comes to truing and dishing and cost to build was much less than a Park stand... started using dials when I was working in the co-op and it was sometimes too noisy to hear the scrapers and the dial gives a great visual and you can see what every small turn of a spoke does.





The upper indicator is fixed to the brake boss so once set it maintains it's position for flipping the wheel and checking dish.

Picked this up NOS from a local shop that has some very good wheel builders but the dish was out by 25 / 1000 so think it was an off the peg wheel and not hand built.

This was shot after I corrected the dish to within 5/1000.

https://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...truestand1.MOV

Sixty Fiver

You damn Americans and your metric...

When it comes to working on wheels I use inches.

BG2

Good topic.

I have been working with the diy wooden truing stand and so far so good.

However in the goal to get more accurate wheels (all my wheels/rims are not new) i bought a dial gauge (mitutoyo) and made a wooden stand.

My problem is 2 fold.

A when i put the point on the edge of the rim it too many times gives false reading as the surface is just too small and i miss something like parktool has and thats the roller to cover the total widht of the rim. So where can i get such a roller.

B on a used rim the braking surface is where the pointer is running over and same problem it gives a false reading. Despite that i know the gauges makes better wheels (for me that is) but it comes at a price especially on used rims/wheels.

Zef

I have had a Park TS-2 since 1991 and I have used it with and without dials over the years. I am OCD when it comes to truing wheels and I find no shop task more relaxing for me than standing in front of my truing stand working on a wheel. That being said I can tell you with all honesty that using dials is more of a pain in the arse than not using them. Measuring the resolution of a true wheel does not tell anything important as you can drill down to a gnats arse in trueness and then find that you have other issues that are more important to the quality of build and longetivity of the wheel such as spoke tension.

Remember, the wheels are going to be riden. The idea is to have wheel that runs as straight as reasonable while having the strongest and most durable build. Even for someone OCD like me, chasing a thousanth or hundreth of an inch is a rediculous task.

The measure of if you have done good work is not how narrow a range you have trued it to but instead when you inspect the wheel after riding it multiple times and it is still running straight.

There is a saying: Don't let "best" be the enemy of "good enough".

But this all means nothing to someone who has there heart and mind set on buying something they believe will help them. So, OP, buy them and find out for yourself if they will be useful for you.

-j

fietsbob

Just , might be easier to see than the gap width , changing, on the standard TS2.. in bad lighting..

notably, for the eyes of the aging, but less fussy..

eddy m

I never liked using a pointer or a caliper like on the TS2. The dials worked way better for me, especially when I was learning. I quit truing when I get to 20 thousands and start working on tension. I can do about that well with a straight edge, but I'm never sure when to quit. I also like that I can measure the wheel and keep records, so I can know if the wheel is stable.
Last year I started using straight edges the way Roger Musson recommends. I like that for radial, but I still prefer the dial for lateral truing. YMMV.

em

mrrabbit 

Mine is pretty much a paper weight - but a great show piece for when KNTV 11 shows up for that future interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szd8aRDVaB8

=8-)

Al1943

+1
Most new rims I've worked with cannot be trued much below .5 mm due to joint imperfections and inconsistent quality control. None of the TS 2 stands I've worked with stay centered when changing to wheels having different dropout spacings. Seems to me that dial indicators won't help with those problems.

PlanoFuji

The dial indicators in the Park set are typical chinese quality DI's. In short they may not be accurate within their stated precision; however that doesn't matter in wheelbuilding. You use the indicators as relative measurement devices to spot the high/low spots on the rim. Any DI will let you get much closer than using feeler gages much quicker. That said, they are not really needed. Sighting by eye with an occasional check with a feeler gage is certainly more cost effective.

And if you really want high precision purchase the park set for the DI holders and then replace the actual dial indicators from Starrett or Mitoyo where each gage will cost more than the entire Park set.

https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-196MA...dial+indicator

Zef

But where does one get the nifty roller indicator tip that Park uses on the radial runout guage? The lateral runout roller tip is easy enough to find but the one they use on the other seems damn near non-existant.

-j

Soil_Sampler

or, these!

https://www.pklie.de/Special250.jpg

Tommygun

Hi I'm a new member here I'm sure your question has been answered 1000 times by now. For me I don't care about accuracy of the dial because I'm not rebuilding a Indy car engine or a Space shuttle. All I'm really concerned about is deflection so if you question is which one gives the most deflection that's a very good question. I lost track of the thread and really failed to get the bottom line between manufactures, Metric vs non metric and country of origin and your question. On my stand I zero the gauge and look for the greatest swing and adjust the spokes until I get the least amount provided the wheel is centered. To be blunt I never look at the numbers just the needle movement. So a gauge that gives super crazy needle movement I can really see great benefits providing I have a month to zero a wheel. when working on my wheels I try to keep things simple and parks gauges I feel are plenty good enough for the everyday rider back in the late sixties and early seventies we flipped the bike upside down spun the wheel and used a common screwdriver as a caliper and pliers as spoke wrenches. I think you have a really good question. I.m really interested in knowing what was the best answer? Thank you

fietsbob

If in a real need , there are Recalibration companies to Hire their services ..

If it's Zero when you start then any touching the rim will be relative to that Zero point.

if you were Cutting Metal on a Lathe to the Nearest ten-thousandths of an inch,, It would Matter more..

krome

If you enjoy chasing the needle, then get a dial indicator. Personally, I like to get the job done quickly, and a DI just doesn't help me with speed, it tends to make one "chase the needle" which will be overkill for a bicycle.

As someone who earns a living machining, I rarely use my indicators on my bicycle stuff because they are unnecessary. I think that they will only dive one nuts when they see how variable rims are in their manufacture.

It's really fun to true a wheel to a high degree of precision, then notice that the tire has miles of runout by comparison.

Fred Smedley

I see no point in dial gauges IMO, sight sound is good enough especially when you factor in how round/true any tire you mount is going to be. I am more concerned that the wheel stays where I end up than if it is true to minuscule amounts. Pissing in the wind........