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No Toe-In for Kool Stop Mountain Salmon Pads? Really?

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No Toe-In for Kool Stop Mountain Salmon Pads? Really?

Old 05-16-11, 02:11 PM
  #1  
wernst
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No Toe-In for Kool Stop Mountain Salmon Pads? Really?

So I just installed a set of Kool Stop Mountain pads with the Salmon compound for my V-Brake-equipped folding bike

Back in the day of caliper brakes, cantis, and U-brakes (which is the last time I replaced pads), I would ensure the pads were toed-in to prevent squealing.

So imagine my my surprise when reading the installation instructions for the Kool Stops on the back of the packaging when it said to basically install the pads finger-tight, squeeze the brake lever to push the pads against the rim (flat, without any toe-in), and then tighten the pads down.

Not entirely believing this advice, I installed the rears as suggested, and the fronts with the pads toed-in the way I used to do it, and then I rode in to work today expecting the rears to be squealing.

To my surprise the rears are silent. The fronts are silent too, and feel a bit softer, obviously because of the toe-in with the pads.

So, what to do? Is toe-in not necessary or recommended with Kool Stop Mountain pads? Or am I really misunderstanding the back of the Kool Stop packaging?

Thanks,
Warr
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Old 05-16-11, 02:50 PM
  #2  
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Pads for V brakes have convex/concave spacers and washers around the bolt that fixes to the arm.
those create the toe adjustment. [Or Not, you do the mechanics]
eagle claw design does an Auto toe in by virtue of the raised part of the pad.

Also ploughs off a bunch of crap off the rim .





Did you write to the company directly and ask them , why, etc.?





....

Last edited by fietsbob; 10-18-18 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 05-16-11, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Pads for V brakes have convex/concave spacers and washers around the bolt that fixes to the arm.
those create the toe adjustment.
eagle claw design does an Auto toe in by virtue of the raised part of the pad.
F,

Thanks, but I understand the mechanism that creates the toe adjustment. My question is why the instructions for the Kool Stops don't call for any toe-in when installing the pads.

And so we are clear, the pads I'm talking about are this (and not Eagle Claws, which have been around so long I used to use them on my bikes when they were new):



-Warr
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Old 05-16-11, 03:11 PM
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At the rear of the pad there's a small lip that sets toe-out if installed as they recommend. I've found it's given me too much toe for my needs, and tend to file that lip off, and set toe my usual way.

So although you don't set toe, the pads are made in such a way that they create toe-out. Eventually that tab wears down though, and manual toeing might be needed.
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Old 05-16-11, 03:22 PM
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They are made that way so the the raised heel part can clear mud from the rim and in theory improve braking. So they are supposed to be installed as per their instructions without toeing in.
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Old 05-16-11, 03:51 PM
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The stupid plow tip creates a toe-in effect when setup per their instructions. Toe-in blows anyways. Makes brakes full mushy and crappy. High quality, for example modern dual pivot calipers require 0 toe-in 99.999% of the time. Brakes feel firm, don't squeal and stop well. Technology, **** yeah.
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Old 05-16-11, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
The stupid plow tip creates a toe-in effect when setup per their instructions. Toe-in blows anyways. Makes brakes full mushy and crappy. High quality, for example modern dual pivot calipers require 0 toe-in 99.999% of the time. Brakes feel firm, don't squeal and stop well. Technology, **** yeah.
Exactly. Toe-in is a crutch for noise. But the firmest and most efficient brakes are brakes that apply square and true to the rim. I have five bikes right now. They all have rim brakes. They are all set per the advice quoted above: "install the pads finger-tight, squeeze the brake lever to push the pads against the rim (flat, without any toe-in), and then tighten the pads down.." All five bikes have good brakes without excessive travel, without drag and WITHOUT SQUEAL. Toe-in is deliberate mis-alignment and will wear the pads unevenly.

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Old 05-16-11, 05:01 PM
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Doesn't toe-in disappear anyway once the pads wear?
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Old 05-16-11, 05:11 PM
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i dont toe in/out any pad unless the brakes squeel like a pig which is not often unless they are old 90s mtb cantis. like operater said it makes the brake feel awful
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Old 05-16-11, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by scruggle View Post
Doesn't toe-in disappear anyway once the pads wear?
Depending on the amount of toe-in, that could be a while.
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Old 05-16-11, 11:12 PM
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if the brakes are squealing i just get new pads and never worry about toe in
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Old 05-17-11, 06:40 AM
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Warr, I had to work at remembering the last time I needed to adjust toe in for my brakes to prevent squealing. I think it was when my '80 Raleigh still had steel rims and that was quite some time ago.

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Old 05-17-11, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by scruggle View Post
Doesn't toe-in disappear anyway once the pads wear?
Yes and no.

As you apply brakes the forward motion of the rim rotates the shoe to bring the heel in and toe out. The amount of rotation depends on the flex and play in the arms.

As the shoe wears the wear will be greater in the heel naturally creating the exact amount of toe-in for your brakes. That's one of the reasons why newly installed shoes stop squealing as they wear in.

If you don't want to wait for the squeal (if any) to go away over time, you can toe the shoes in slightly when installing them. The right amount is such that when the bike is pushed froward against the applied brake (mid-range braking force) the shoe rotates to make flat contact on the rim.
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Old 05-17-11, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Yes and no.

As you apply brakes the forward motion of the rim rotates the shoe to bring the heel in and toe out. The amount of rotation depends on the flex and play in the arms.

As the shoe wears the wear will be greater in the heel naturally creating the exact amount of toe-in for your brakes. That's one of the reasons why newly installed shoes stop squealing as they wear in.

If you don't want to wait for the squeal (if any) to go away over time, you can toe the shoes in slightly when installing them. The right amount is such that when the bike is pushed froward against the applied brake (mid-range braking force) the shoe rotates to make flat contact on the rim.
I put a little forward pressure on the bike when I set and tighten the pads. Obviously, the cheaper and cheesier the calipers the more the tow change upon brake application.

Don in Austin
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Old 05-17-11, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Don in Austin View Post
I put a little forward pressure on the bike when I set and tighten the pads. Obviously, the cheaper and cheesier the calipers the more the tow change upon brake application.

Don in Austin
Don, I'd never thought about that. What a positively simple but brilliant idea! You just earned the coveted BCRider Internet Gold Star of the Week.

It's worth the same as an E-beer and has the same alchohal content so don't think you're rich all of a sudden....
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Old 10-17-18, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by frantik View Post
if the brakes are squealing i just get new pads and never worry about toe in
man who is this idiot!? lmao I just bought some new kool stop pads pads and installed them with toe in and man do they scream! imagine finding myself giving this crappy advice 7 years ago when looking for some answers
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