AdamDZ

With a traditional vertical dropout the weight of the bike sits on the axle so no great force is required to hold the axle in place and quick release skewers suffice to keep everything together. Every singlespeed bike with horizontal dropouts I ever saw/owned uses through axles and bolts to keep the axle in place or the wheel would slide out during braking.

What's the deal with Surly Troll and similar designs? Can I use a regular QR hub if I want to have a geared setup or they require a through axle and bolts?

Any close up shots of the Troll's rear dropouts with derailleurs would be nice to see. Thanks.

Al Criner

You need skewers with an internal cam (like Shimano) and you need to really tighten them down.

AdamDZ

Same hubs, just different skewers? Hm... It doesn't feel safe, going downhill at 40mph and squeezing brakes hard.

Al Criner

Are you running single speed or geared? People have run QR hubs on horizontal dropouts for decades on geared bikes.

AdamDZ

I'm thinking about getting a Surly Troll frame and setting it up with standard 3/9 drivetrain. I just have hard time understanding what's holding the axle in place.

wolfchild

I have a Surly 1x1 , the same dropouts as a Troll. I have a wheelset with solid nutted axle which I prefer. But I also use another wheelset with quick release on the same bike. If you plan on using quick release then I also reccommend using some Chain tugs with it, to make it more secure, I prefer to use Shimano quick release. Surly makes some nice Chaintugs but there are others out there that will work. If you are gona be using a shimano freehub and you don't want a quick release, then you can always change that to a solid nutted axle. Both will work it's your choice.

AdamDZ

I already have a set of good wheels that I'd like to use and they have regular MTB Shimano XT freehub with QR. Although I'm using skewers with hex heads (no lever) so I can tighten them more than regular skewers.

I'm confused about your mention of chain tugs. They're meant to tension the chain, i.e. pull the wheel exactly in the direction I don't want it to be pulled

Al Criner

Braking won't be your problem. The problem you might have is the axle pulling forward on the drive side when you crank really hard on the pedals. This would pull the wheel crooked as the drive side pulls forward and the NDS stays put. With a Shimano skewer you should be able to crank it down hard enough to avoid this. If you have a problem, just recenter the wheel and tighten the skewer a bit. Seriously, horizontal dropouts are traditional and they will be alright. They are a little bit of a complication on a geared bike but they will work.

Yan 

I've been running quick release axles on horizontal dropout bikes for years, including on a touring bike with a low gear of 18.9 gear inches. I use internal cam skewers and have never had a problem with slippage. The skewer on your Shimano XT hub is fine. I use the same hub on the touring bike.

The axle is being held in place by the friction between the locknut and the inside of the dropouts.

Re-Cycle

Chain tugs are a good suggestion because they hold the axle back to combat your legs which are pulling the axle forward.


I personally prefer old school steel quick releases for horizontal applications. I feel like you can really torque them down and that the teeth really dig in to the dropout unlike some modern light weight versions.

AdamDZ

Thanks a lot guys! Sounds like I shouldn't worry too much about this then. Cheers!

wolfchild

Chain tugs make it a little bit easier to align the wheel and tension the chain, they also prevent your wheel from slipping forward in the drop outs when you push hard on your cranks. Sure a quick release will work by itself... but I just prefer a little bit of extra security. I ride singlespeed or fixed so I don't want to take any chances with my wheels slipping.

AdamDZ

Oh, I see. I though that you could simply insert the axle all the way into the dropouts, so pulling the wheel while pedaling wouldn't be an issue. From your description it seems like it needs to sit somewhere in the middle. There is a chance then that the axle might slip in both directions if it's not tight enough. I'm not sure I like this after all. I will probably pass the Troll and look for something with conventional vertical dropouts. The less things to worry about, the better.

jbrow1

I ride an old schwinn with a 7 speed freewheel and QR rear axle. If I don't tighten the snot out of it, it will pull the wheel out of center when I brake hard. Never had it happen pedalling, but maybe there's not enough HP in the engine My old mountain bike is the opposite though, it pulls to the side from pedal pressure, but that is a nutted axle, so it can happen with either setup. To fix that problem I had to file the dropouts as the nuts had gouged them up and would make it want to slide to a certain spot even if I had aligned it in a different spot. Personally if I were doing up a bike, I would definately look for vertical dropouts.

AdamDZ

Agreed. This for a loaded touring setup, so I want as little things that might go wrong as possible.

fietsbob

I have been using a QR Axle hubs on Campag 1010 dropouts for 40 years.

your issue may come with the Index shifting, as the relationship between
the axles of the rear derailleur and the wheel are not fixed.

Slipping concerns will be resolved by a' banjo bolt'/tug nut, installation
wont be as QR after that.(but you won't need tools to remove the QR)
as they fit over the axle.,To pull against, there is a piece that spans the rear opening, .

A sliding dropout frame design does the job of fitting a IG Hub gear,
with out a chain tensioner Or a Derailleur drive-train.
Particularly with disc brakes as the disc caliper moves with the axle.

unterhausen

it wasn't that long ago that there weren't any good vertical dropouts and almost all top-end racing bikes had horizontal drops. Now that vertical dropouts are the norm, you have to work a little harder to make sure that your QR skewers are up to the task. You will find out if there is a problem on a hill, but it will be going uphill when the tire starts rubbing on the left chainstay.

FastJake

A good enclosed cam QR skewer like Shimano when properly tightened will hold a wheel in place, regardless of the dropout. I have used QR with fixed gear, single speed, and on an SS mountain bike that I frequently take down stairs and off jumps (all horizontal dropouts.) The only skewer I have ever had slip was a cheap aluminum exposed cam unit. Avoid those and you will be fine.

HillRider

A said above multiple times, a suitable internal cam qr (Shimano and Campy are both that type) will easily hold a rear wheel firmly in horizontal dropouts. I've had several bikes with horizontal dropouts, including a current Surly Cross Check, and using Shimano qr skewers I've never had a wheel slip or mis-align.

relyt

I have two bikes with horizontal dropouts and quick release skewers and they work just fine. A properly adjusted QR skewer has just as much clamping force as an axle bolt, and perhaps even more. Adjust the skewers so that when they are about halfway closed you start to feel strong resistance. It should take a good push to close them all the way.

If you are really worried, you could get some allen-key skewers. But you shouldn't worry.

JohnDThompson 

And on fixed gears:

alan s 

I use QR on my Troll with no issues whatsoever, other than it's slightly more difficult to remove the rear wheel with a Shadow XT derailleur. Lots of pictures here https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ht=surly+troll

AdamDZ

I decided against the troll for now. I'm really not convinced. Some people do say the wheel has tendency to move. And I remember having to adjust the wheel on my IGH (later SS) bike with a bolt-on axle, so yeah, I'm not convinced how a QR skewer can hold something that a through axle with a 15mm bolt could hold in place well. It's just too much of an unknown for me and I'd rather stick to known stuff for now. I don't feel adventurous right now.

FastJake

Several qualified mechanics (not myself, but others) have said this is 100% fine and you're not convinced? Anyone who said the wheel slipped didn't tighten the QR enough or was using a bad skewer. Road bikes used QR and horizontal dropouts for over 50 years. If it was really a problem they would've changed sooner.

Another one who knows the answer before asking the question...

AdamDZ

I wouldn't be asking the question if I knew the answer. I'm grateful for all the input, but I'm really not convinced. I'm sorry. I can't help it. I might try it eventually, but for this particular project I will stick with a frame with vertical dropouts.