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Old 06-04-11, 08:27 PM   #1
llmercll
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Differences when truing a rear wheel

Hello! I went through the process of truing my front wheel today. At least laterally. Tomorrow I am going to true the roundness and work on my rear wheel. Some of the spokes are so loose they slide around =(

Anyway, I'm wondering what needs to be done differently on the rear. Because the sprockets are connected to one side of the wheel, I know the dish will be different, and one side will have lower tension than the other.

Can someone explain which side will be looser and by how much? I also believe one side will only need 1/4 a turn while the other will need 1/2. I'm a little confused and would appreciate the help!

thanks!
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Old 06-04-11, 08:50 PM   #2
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The idea is to center the rim between the locknuts, chainstays, and seat stays. To get the rim centered the drive side spokes (cassette side) will have much more tension than the non drive side. How much tension difference there is depends on how wide the cassette is and the design on the rim. The trick is to get enough tension in the drive side spokes so that they don't break from excess flexure, and at the same time have a centered rim. With light weight road rims it is best to do the final lateral truing and dishing with the tire and tube on the wheel fully inflated to riding pressure. The air pressure will make a difference in dish.

As for radial truing it is better and easier to do most of the radial truing before doing the lateral truing. And it's better to get most of the dishing and tensioning done before the lateral truing. Of course all of these variable work together and effect each other.

A good truing job requires developing more skills than lacing spokes on a new wheel.
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Old 06-04-11, 10:02 PM   #3
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Ok, I just checked my bike and the drive train side is indeed much tighter =)

But the other side is so loose that the spokes wiggle. That's too loose right? Should the drivetrain side be similar tightness to my front wheel?

thanks!
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Old 06-04-11, 10:12 PM   #4
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http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...lator-for-tm-1

Judging by this the drive side should be roughly twice as tight?

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Old 06-04-11, 10:54 PM   #5
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The difference in tension is (almost) exactly proportional (inversely) to the difference in the center to flange distance. If the right flange is half the distance from the center as the left, the right spokes will be twice as tight. For typical rear hubs with ctr/flange distances of 31l/18r the left side tension will be 18/31 the tension of the right.

Note, I said almost. The above calculation assumes that all the spokes go to the centerline of the rim. In reality there's usually a bit of offset, which slightly increases the tension difference right and left.

BTW- while this helps predict the range of tensions involved, the reality is that the position of the rim determines the outcome, and as a practical matter you tighten the right side to a desired tension, and the left will be whatever is necessary to keep the rim centered.
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Old 06-05-11, 02:46 AM   #6
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The spokes should not be wiggling they will just have less tension.

1. Check dish --> fix dish
2. Check roundness --> fix roundness
3. Check true --> fix true
4. Check tension of drive side spokes --> re-tension
5. Repeat 1-4 until all are good and don't worry about the tension in the non-drive spokes

Of course if you miscalculated the length of the non-drive spokes that would be a problem but I'm assuming you did not.

And yes the rear wheel is a big pain. Notice what my number 1 priority is? Dish. You can't do squat unless the dish is right.

Last edited by hillsbreakme; 06-05-11 at 02:47 AM. Reason: correct the wrong info
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Old 06-05-11, 03:52 PM   #7
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I don't really understand dish. I've been neglecting it because it confuses me. Can someone explain it to me in a way I would understand it?

It's easy for me to understand radial and lateral true, and tension is obvious, but dish seems more complicated.

thanks!
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Old 06-05-11, 04:09 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by llmercll View Post
I don't really understand dish. I've been neglecting it because it confuses me. Can someone explain it to me in a way I would understand it?

It's easy for me to understand radial and lateral true, and tension is obvious, but dish seems more complicated.

thanks!
It's only complicated if you make it so.

Front or rear wheels are built with the rim centered between the ends of the axle (faces of locknuts not the end of the axle itself). Plain front hubs are symmetrical, so the rim is also centered between the flanges.

But rear hubs are asymmetrical with the fight flange closer to the centerline than the left, so while the rim is centered on the axle, it's not centered between the flanges. That means the spokes on the right are coming to the rim at a flatter angle than those from the left - consider the difference between a normal A and an italic A.

This difference in angle means that the spokes on the right pull inward more and across less than those on the left, so for the rim to remain in equilibrium in this arrangement the right spokes must be tighter than those on the left.

That's the basic theory, but you don't need to know that. You only need to build and/or align so that the rim is centered on the axle so it sits centered in the frame. Everything else is imposed on you by that condition.
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Old 06-05-11, 04:51 PM   #9
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And one more angle on understanding dish: Forget the terminology. Just make sure the rear rim is centered between the brake shoes. If you've got a disc brake, just make sure the rear rim is centered between the seat stays. You should be able to put the rear wheel between the dropouts with the cassette facing either side, and the rim won't shift position between the brake shoes/seat stays. Then, your wheel is "dished" correctly, and you'll notice that the angles the left and right spokes form with the hub are different.

Continue on to steps 2-4 listed above. :-)
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Old 06-05-11, 06:03 PM   #10
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And one more angle on understanding dish: Forget the terminology. Just make sure the rear rim is centered between the brake shoes.
Afraid I don't agree. Brake shoes are often not centered on the bike's frame. Proper dish, as said in post #2, means that the rim is centered between the seatstays, chainstays, and locknuts (dropouts). Once the rim is centered the brakes may be centered on the rim.

Dishing is simply centering the rim. Modern multi geared bikes "have more dish" because the driveside hub flange is offset more to make room for more cassette cogs.

The easiest way to check dish is to reverse the wheel on a truing stand. If no truing stand, reverse it on the bike. If the rim moves over, it's not centered (out of dish).
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Old 06-05-11, 07:19 PM   #11
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And a note about trueing. You said you trued laterall and later you'd true for roundness and axial variation. That's the wrong way to approach the truing. You need to pretty much do both things together with the roundness and axial (up and down) truing being done first then the lateral (side to side) done right after, then tension up a little, then re- true axially then laterally, then tension up some more, etc. By truing then tensioning then truing etc you stand to end up with a better wheel which is balanced better in spoke tensions while being nicely true.

And all your spokes in the end, even the less tight ones, should have a nice musical tone to them when tapped with a screwdriver handle. If they sound dull and non musical even though they aren't wiggling around anymore then they are still too loose overall.

Since the front wheel on a non disc brake wheel is symetrical the "tone" you get from the spokes should all be very nearly the same. On the rear the steeper angle non drive side will be a lower tone than the front. But they should still be all even on that side. The drive side will be a higher tone than the front and again all the spokes on that side should sound close to the same when tapped.

Ideally you would get a spoke tensioning gauge. But for someone that won't be doing this much you can still fix a lot of evil situations and get great riding life from wheels built just by setting and matching the tensions by the tones the spokes make when struck.

Last edited by BCRider; 06-05-11 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 06-06-11, 02:05 AM   #12
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I think I'm beginning to get it =)

Super noob question, the axel is the hub, right?

If dishing is how centered the hub is, how exactly would you adjust that?

thanks!
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Old 06-06-11, 02:54 AM   #13
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I think I'm beginning to get it =)

Super noob question, the axel is the hub, right?

If dishing is how centered the hub is, how exactly would you adjust that?

thanks!
The axle is not the hub. The axle, more accurately the locknuts, are the faces that fit against the drop out inner faces and are the index points for centering the rim.

A front wheel is symetrical and the center of the hub flanges is the same as the center point of the locknut faces so a front wheel is not "dished".

A rear wheel is not symetrical so the center of the hub is not the same as the center of the locknut faces and the rim must be centered between the locknut faces, NOT centered over the hub flanges. The easiest and best way to set the rear wheel dish is with a "dishing tool". Even goodones aren't that expensive and are a necessity for accurate rear wheel building.
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Old 06-07-11, 06:49 AM   #14
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Correct. I would also add stress relieving.
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Old 06-07-11, 09:25 AM   #15
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llmercll:

I'll simplify "dish" for you:

1. ADJECTIVE: The appearance of a "bowl" formed by the spokes on each side of a wheel. For most front non-disc wheels - the "bowls" will appear to be the same. For most multi-geared rear wheels - the bowls will appear to be different. The drive side will appear to be a very shallow "bowl" while the non-drive side will appear to be a "deeper "bowl". This is a NON-TECHNICAL description of "dish".

2. VERB : CENTERING the rim BETWEEN the outside edges of the LOCKNUTS of the axle. All wheels must be dished - no matter their appearance. Either the wheel is "dished" or it is "not dished". There is no "less dished" or "more dished". It is okay to say, "This wheel is off-dish about 2mm to the non-drive side."

Your concern is with #2 - the technical aspects of dish. Easiest way is to get a dishing tool and use that. DO NOT let the appearance of the wheel fool you - use the tool to verify. If you do not get that rim centered between the locknuts:

1. It will affect overall "ride" in the alignment sense.
2. If it is off dish by a lot, it will affect the drivetrain including shifting.

=8-)
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Old 06-07-11, 09:32 AM   #16
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How will dish affect shifting? The cassette wil be in the same position regardless of dish.
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Old 06-07-11, 09:40 AM   #17
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How will dish affect shifting? The cassette wil be in the same position regardless of dish.
I suppose if the rim is dished too close to the driveside, the rear derailleur could hit the spokes when in the largest couple of cogs.
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Old 06-07-11, 10:07 AM   #18
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How will dish affect shifting? The cassette wil be in the same position regardless of dish.
When you place a rear multi-geared wheel that is severely "off dish" in the bike and center that wheel between the chainstays - you are centering a "non-centered" (off-dish) rim in the bike. The result is that a bias of the rim to one side is being hidden in the centering of the wheel between the stays. This will affect the angle at which the chain and cogs meet. This can result in a "grind" in the drivetrain in certain gears and affect shifting.

Furthermore, this can result is the bike in having "two trails". I.e., a wet test will show two tracks instead of one when riding the bike.

=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
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4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
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Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 06-15-11, 09:28 AM   #19
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I appreciate all the replies =)

Is there any "home made" tool I can use to measure dish?

thanks!

Last edited by llmercll; 06-15-11 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 06-15-11, 09:45 AM   #20
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Ok, I just checked my bike and the drive train side is indeed much tighter =)
they have to be .. to make room for the stack of cogs, the hubshell has to move to your left
that is done thru the tension differential.

A dish stick is adjustable in the center, to compare side to side.
bought, they don't cost much, but,
perhaps you can fabricate something in plywood,
using the factory straight cut edge.

flipping the wheel over can let you roughly judge that.

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Old 06-15-11, 09:47 AM   #21
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I appreciate all the replies =)

Is there any "home made" tool I can use to measure dish?

thanks!
It's fairly easy to measure if you're at all creative. You want to measure the horizontal distance from the axle face to the rim. A simple way is to make two equal height piles of books on a table on which to lay the rim. Measure up from the table to the axle face. Flip the wheel and measure again. If the two measurements match your wheel is dished correctly. If not you have to move the rim over.

Adjusting dish is done by by tightening all the spokes on one side, while loosening the ones on the other side.
Assuming the wheel is aligned and tight, loosen first, then tighten. Moving to the right is difficult because those spokes are already tighter, and it's easy to round off a nipple, so make sure the spoke wrench fits tightly, or use a box type spoke wrench that holds 3 or 4 corners.

If a wheel is far off center, I overly loosen, the left side, then tighten the right moving the rim to the right beyond center, then tightening the left brings the rim exactly where I need it with less risk of damaging the right-side nipples.

BTW- if your bike has vertical dropouts you can quickly check dish by noting where the rim is in the seatstays, then flipping the wheel over and seeing if the rim moves over. If the rim is centered it won't. If you do this be sure the axle is fully into the dropout, since axle movement can give you a false reading.
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Old 06-15-11, 11:16 AM   #22
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I appreciate all the replies =)

Is there any "home made" tool I can use to measure dish?

thanks!
1) Put 3 identical soup cans or such on the counter
2) lay wheel down so the rim sits on the cans.
3) measure the distance from the locknut to the counter
4) Flip the wheel over
5) measure the distance from the other locknut to the counter
6) If they are different, then it's not dished correctly, and you need to adjust it.

Use the same method to ensure the front wheel is centered between the locknuts.

More info: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
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Old 06-15-11, 02:22 PM   #23
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So you now have 2 almost identical methods to measure dish. The only difference is Homebrew eats canned soup, and I read books.

You can use anything, you want as long as it's tall enough for the axle to clear the table. Also the measurement doesn't have to be precise, since you're not concerned with actual measurement, just the comparison of both. You could use a piece of cardboard and mark the height of the locknut face.
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Old 06-15-11, 04:33 PM   #24
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You can dish a wheel accurately by flipping it over on a truing stand. The rim's braking surface should be equally distant from the caliper arm(s) either way it's mounted on the stand. For maximum accuracy the tire and tube should be fully inflated to riding pressure.
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Old 06-15-11, 04:43 PM   #25
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I dont know if anybody mentioned that the wheel will get as good as the rim is? If the rim is in bad shape u can work it out until certain point, so sometimes specially in the joint area, u have to decide if you want the wheel true or round.
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