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a little wheelbuilding spoke length help please

Old 06-08-11, 05:13 PM
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a little wheelbuilding spoke length help please

I am going to be building my first wheelset. Tiagra 4500 hubs laced to Sun CR-18. It should make for a nice, shiny, reliable, and inexpensive wheelset.

Using the spoke calculator here:
https://lenni.info/edd/

I get:
Spoke length
Hub: Shimano Tiagra FH-4500, rear
Rim: Sun CR18- single eyelets
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 296.4
Spoke length right: 294.8


Spoke length
Hub: Shimano Tiagra HB-4500, front
Rim: Sun CR18- single eyelets
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 297.8
Spoke length right: 297.8

So, the question is...can I order a box of 100 at 297mm length and be good for the whole build? If not, what would you recommend?

Thanks.
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Old 06-08-11, 06:23 PM
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Using Sun's ERD of 612 max:

298.00

297.00

295.00

Those are your spoke lengths in whole numbers that you need...using 10mm nipples with boxed spokes. There are plenty of online stores that'll sell you exactly what you need - say 40, 20 and 20 in the noted sizes.

Just do a little searching...or wait as a member here will likely pop in soon having already bookmarked a few places.

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Old 06-08-11, 06:24 PM
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I incidently get and ERD of 611 when I measure them aiming for the screwdriver flat of a standard profile nipple.

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Old 06-08-11, 07:38 PM
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mrrabbit,

thanks for the reply. i see your recommendation of getting the exact size for each spoke, which is probably the right way to go. is that what most people do or are a lot of them fudged (like i was intending)?

will that even work?
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Old 06-08-11, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
mrrabbit,

thanks for the reply. i see your recommendation of getting the exact size for each spoke, which is probably the right way to go. is that what most people do or are a lot of them fudged (like i was intending)?

will that even work?
Since this is your first wheelset I'd want to start with everything in the default mode. That includes spoke lengths. That way if everything doesn't come out right the first time you'll know that it's not bad parts but that you did something wrong. Laceing bicycle wheels is all about attention to detail. Spoke lengths is one of those details.

FWIW, my rule of thumb on spoke lengths is plus or minus 1 millimeter. I'm thinking that drive side spokes 3mm too long might run out of threads before you get them up to tension.
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Old 06-08-11, 07:57 PM
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thanks, retro grouch. that is sound reasoning.

alright, fellas. i will get the right spokes.

now to find a good deal on 40/20/20 (or 36/18/18)!
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Old 06-08-11, 08:01 PM
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I would round down on the drive side rear spokes. With high tension these spokes can elongate a bit and you do not want to be long and run out of threads.
I would also recommend a double eyelet rim for the rear wheel, stronger and last longer.
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Old 06-08-11, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
thanks, retro grouch. that is sound reasoning.

alright, fellas. i will get the right spokes.

now to find a good deal on 40/20/20 (or 36/18/18)!
I have the ability to buy spokes at wholesale prices but that also means buying wholesale size lots. Since I only build a few sets per year now I've been buying my spokes from Wheelbuilder.com. They'll sell you the exact number of each length that you need.

The number that you need depends on your confidence. If you do a good building job the odds of breaking a spoke are really low. In your case I'd just order 36/18/18. I use DT Competitions 90% of the time.

Last edited by Retro Grouch; 06-08-11 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 06-08-11, 08:14 PM
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retro grouch, thanks for the tip.

i was going to get 14g/2.0 DT Champions (cheaper). i figure if i bust a spoke i can always hit up the LBS at $1/per.
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Old 06-08-11, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
i was going to get 14g/2.0 DT Champions (cheaper). i figure if i bust a spoke i can always hit up the LBS at $1/per.
Yeah, they're about half the price. On the other hand, you can buy prebuilt wheels for less money than you'll pay for the component parts. If I'm going to the trouble of building a wheelset, I want to feel like it has a little bit more bling than a bargain basement factory built set.
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Old 06-08-11, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
I am going to be building my first wheelset. Tiagra 4500 hubs laced to Sun CR-18. It should make for a nice, shiny, reliable, and inexpensive wheelset.

Using the spoke calculator here:
https://lenni.info/edd/

I get:
Spoke length
Hub: Shimano Tiagra FH-4500, rear
Rim: Sun CR18- single eyelets
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 296.4
Spoke length right: 294.8


Spoke length
Hub: Shimano Tiagra HB-4500, front
Rim: Sun CR18- single eyelets
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 297.8
Spoke length right: 297.8

So, the question is...can I order a box of 100 at 297mm length and be good for the whole build? If not, what would you recommend?

Thanks.
Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
retro grouch, thanks for the tip.

i was going to get 14g/2.0 DT Champions (cheaper). i figure if i bust a spoke i can always hit up the LBS at $1/per.
I actually just built this exact wheel.... at least the rear. The Tiagra hub with the CR18 rim. I used the Spokecalc spreadsheet which gave me left side 296 and right side 294. (These values I rounded down.)

However, I decided to go with 293 and 295, since I've had a previous experience with this spreadsheet and spokes extending beyond the nipples.

I've actually done two rear wheels with these specs. On one I used DT Champions and on the other DT Competition.

I'd recommend the Champions if you are a first-time builder. There is a lot less spoke flex with the Champions, because, of course, they are not butted. The Competition build was a little more challenging for me... and I've built about 10 wheels.

As a first time build, you should expect to ride about 50-100 miles and then re-true the wheel. Experienced builders usually get away without this I believe.

Another piece of advice. Use a 4-sided spoke wrench. Make sure it's the correct one (the black one if you are using the Park wrench.)

Last edited by gerv; 06-08-11 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 06-08-11, 10:01 PM
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gerv,

you have great taste. hopefully you found some of the polished rims (and not the silver/black).

im a pretty experienced mechanic. wheels are the final frontier.

since you went 293/295, do you think i should go 296 on the front?
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Old 06-09-11, 12:29 AM
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I just did the same combo for my first wheel build, next time I do it I will round down the spoke length, mine seemed too close to the rim when tightened. The only thing I would recommend is make sure you have a dish stick, tension meter and true stand. They don't need to be expensive almost any junk will work. If you buy the park one it comes with a nice tension chart for all types of spokes. My biggest problem was getting the tires on...pretty tight and gave me a mongo blister which is still healing.

There is a guy on ebay who cuts any number/size of spokes you want...was very happy with him.
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Old 06-09-11, 04:17 AM
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I just built front/rear wheels with Tiagra 4500's with some older Araya RM20 MTB rims with Wheelsmith 2.0s. I used the spoke length calculater at https://www.bikeschool.com/tools/spoke-length-calculator

Same thought crossed my mind about cheating on spokes, since I've got about 9 bags of leftovers with a few to a dozen or so spokes of various lengths from all the wheels I've built in recent history. So I did an experiment with some cheap Alex x202 26" 36H rims and old hubs lying around. Software computed 265R, 267L, and 268F. I went with cheap Wheel Master standard plated spokes (talk about really cheap! $17 for 100!), at 266mm. The length was fine for left side and front wheel. Plenty of bite. But the gear side was peeking out by a hair. I still have plenty of thread to tension the gear side, but that meant busting out the dremel, unlacing and cutting/grinding 1mm off 18 spokes and re-installing (thread a nipple down the shaft before cutting spoke so unscrewing that nipple will chase and clean up threads). Unfortunately, those cheap spokes only come in 266mm with 260mm the closest next size down. No 265mm. I actually think the 12mm nipples have more than sufficient bite even if 3mm shorter than spec. As it stands, my son, who's 11 and only about 100 lbs is riding these wheels on his hybrid Bridgestone CB2. No issues so far.
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Old 06-09-11, 08:47 AM
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thanks, guys.

i have the nice park stand and a tension meter. i'm forgoing the dish stick and instead going to keep flipping the wheel over in the stand until i get the dish correct. i'm in no hurry.

cutting the spokes down is an option, but it sounds like a PITA unless you have a good tool for it (i don't).
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Old 06-09-11, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
I have the ability to buy spokes at wholesale prices but that also means buying wholesale size lots. Since I only build a few sets per year now I've been buying my spokes from Wheelbuilder.com. They'll sell you the exact number of each length that you need.
Except when buying aero spokes there are much less expensive sources.

DT 2.0/1.8, 1.8/1.6, and 2.0/1.5 spokes one at a time in even and odd lengths for $.69 on-line

https://store.icyclesusa.com/revolution-c2612.aspx

versus $1.10 for even lengths and $1.50 for odd at wheelbuilder.com ($25.60 - $51.24 in savings for a set of 32/32 spoke wheels)

Sapim 2.0/1.8 can be had for $.40 each cut to length

https://www.danscomp.com/435915.php?cat=PARTS

versus $1 for even lengths and $1.40 for odd at wheelbuilder.com ($38.40 - $64 in savings)

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 06-09-11 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 06-09-11, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gerv View Post
I actually just built this exact wheel.... at least the rear. The Tiagra hub with the CR18 rim. I used the Spokecalc spreadsheet which gave me left side 296 and right side 294. (These values I rounded down.)

However, I decided to go with 293 and 295, since I've had a previous experience with this spreadsheet and spokes extending beyond the nipples.
The spread sheet is perfect but the world isn't.

Some people measure to the nipple slot, some people its end (2mm ERD difference).

Some rims come out on the large size, some on the small size (My last three Kinlin XR-300s measured a round 578mm, round 579.5mm, and ovoid which varies from 578 to 579.5).

Spokes stretch. A 1.5mm spoke stretches about 1mm drive-side/front and 1.8mm about .7mm. NDS can be less than half that.

With 2mm between the spoke slot and running out of threads (with 9mm thread on DT spokes and 8mm thread to the nipple tops on 12mm nipples) and less than 1mm of head below the slot not accounting for all this can bottom spokes or break alloy nipples.

Account for stretch, use real rim measurements, and you'll do fine until you replace the rim due to wear/fatigue/crash damage.

I'd recommend the Champions if you are a first-time builder. There is a lot less spoke flex with the Champions, because, of course, they are not butted. The Competition build was a little more challenging for me... and I've built about 10 wheels.
When you take steps to deal with windup it's not a big deal. I used DT 2.0/1.5 Revolutions front and rear non-drive side, with DT 2.0/1.8 Competition spokes drive side on my first wheel set. It worked great.

As a first time build, you should expect to ride about 50-100 miles and then re-true the wheel. Experienced builders usually get away without this I believe.
You can avoid the re-touch regardless of experience.

Wrapping a piece of tape around representative spokes in each group (front, rear drive side, rear non-drive side) lets you see what sort of windup you're getting at that time (it gets worse as tension increases). I use the spoke(s) following the valve stem hole.

It's best to avoid the problem although for insurance you can put the wheel on the ground with quick release removed and axle down (use a wood block beneath the axle to save your floors) and push on opposite sides of the rim to reduce tension on the spokes next to the floor to relieve windup. Go around the wheel and flip it over.

Another piece of advice. Use a 4-sided spoke wrench. Make sure it's the correct one (the black one if you are using the Park wrench.)
A 2 sided wrench is plenty with proper lubrication on spoke threads and rim sockets (I like anti-seize) and way easier to seat than the small park 4-sided wrench.

After a few years with some rain (SF Bay Area), about a decade of winters without too much salt (Colorado Front Range), and anti-seize even alloy nipples still turn fine.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 06-10-11 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 06-09-11, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
thanks, guys.

i have the nice park stand and a tension meter. i'm forgoing the dish stick and instead going to keep flipping the wheel over in the stand until i get the dish correct. i'm in no hurry.

cutting the spokes down is an option, but it sounds like a PITA unless you have a good tool for it (i don't).
Cutting the spokes is only necessary with cheap single-wall rims which have the rim strip sitting on the nipples and by itself only nets you 1mm of tolerance (there's 9mm of thread on a DT spoke and 8mm to the top of a 12mm DT nipple. You still run out of threads at the same length between nipple and head with the end chopped off).

Using spokes that are too long requires rolling additional threads (where the metal flows above the spoke surface so a die which just cuts won't work) with a cheap tool being $170 and expensive one thousands. If you want your nipple driver to pop out at the right depth you can cut them too.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 06-09-11 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 06-09-11, 04:54 PM
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drew,

thanks for the links and detailed responses. it seems you've built your share of wheels.

the cr18 is double-walled, so it should give me some tolerance.
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Old 06-09-11, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
T
It's best to avoid the problem although for insurance you can put the wheel on the ground with quick release removed and axle down (use a wood block beneath the axle to save your floors) and push on opposite sides of the rim to reduce tension on the spokes next to the floor to relieve windup. Go around the wheel and flip it over.
A method I have been using is to place the rim on an open 5-gallon plastic bucket. Work your way along the rim and you will hear the spokes groan. Flip the wheel and try the other side. Then time to retrue.

As for spoke wrenches.. I just built two wheels using a DT Spokey wrench. 4-sided. Lots of leverage on the fins. Very easy to be accurate on half and quarter turns. Easiest build ever.
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Old 06-09-11, 09:08 PM
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Listen to Drew.

I've built my share of wheels, and his post is exactly what I was going to write... every bit.

Pay attention especially to the anti-sieze tip. I use it to lubricate both the spoke threads and the rim's nipple seats... it works better than anything else you can use. After I tried anti-sieze compound, I wondered why on Earth anyone would pay to buy that overpriced goop called Spokeprep. And buy your anti-sieze compound at the auto parts store... it's dirt cheap and will virtually end your problems with spokes winding up. I have zero problems building with DT Swiss Revolution spokes (2.0/1.5 butted, I think) whereas they used to be very difficult to work with.

Another advantage to anti-sieze use: you can true those wheels years later if you need to. I can't tell you how many wheelsets I've picked up for free because they were built without lubing the nipples... all it takes is one or two frozen nipples to make truing a wheel impossible. I get them... replace the nipples (lubed, naturally)... and ride them or sell them. I've sold several wheelsets for hundreds of dollars when all I have invested in them is $4 worth of nipples and some time.
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