radeane

Rant and Question.

I live in NYC and there is an LBS every few miles in any direction. What I'm looking for is usually questions to things I can't do, don't want to do or I am having trouble with something. I do most of own wrenching but there are areas I prefer to not mess with because I know the quality done by a professional would be/should be better than what I would do or I don't have the tools to do it properly.

- After doing my own rear derailleur adjustment something was not quite right, so I take it to LBS and they say they make some adjustments, but it's still not quite right, the upshifts are the problem. I ask about the cables (over a year old) and they tell me the cables are fine. The bike still doesn't shift the way it should. On a hunch it's cables, I buy new cables and housing, make my own adjustments and the bike shifts the way it's supposed to, quick, fast and accurate. I'm out the $10-$15 for a gear adjustment when it was the cables/housing all along.

- I bought a used bike and I know the rear derailleur is not aligned properly. I can see it. They tell me it just probably needs a derailleur adjustment. They adjust it, and it's still off. I go back and I tell them, (almost have to demand) to please check the hanger and align it with a tool/gauge and they do. Sure enough it's off, they make some adjustments, re-adjust the RD and everything is now fine.

- I bought a used wheelset (DA's laced to Open Pro's) and I know that I want the hub degreased/repacked, spokes loosened, tightened, tensioned and trued. I can feel a slight roll/grind in the hub when holding the wheel in your hand and I can feel some spokes are looser than others even though the wheel is true. A shop offers check and true the wheel without addressing my concerns. They tell me I don't need all that. I walk out.

- I broke a spoke on my fixed gear (I got a couple of bikes) and I take it to the LBS. They over charge me, my opinion, but it also includes truing the wheel and I agree. I get the wheel back, and it's true laterally but it's out of round. I take it back and they check and fix it and now it's fine. This same shop also told me one time that I need a new chain and cassette, but when measured with a ruler or chain checker the chain is fine.

- This is just pile on. I was looking for a second bike, eyelets for a rack, drop bars, and not too much money. The salesman points me to a Giant Defy 3 , I think, but tells me he doesn't recommend it, not because it's Sora but because it's 9 speed and 9 speed is outdated and parts will be hard to find soon.

This is five different LBS'.

How do you go about finding an honest and competent wrench/LBS that will 1) listen to what you want and 2) getting it done right the first time. I'm all for supporting your LBS but the quality of work and integrity has to be there. I just can't find it anywhere. This trial and error and subpar service is frustrating.

I still need work on my DA Open Pro wheelset but I don't know where to go. I am 0 for 5 in finding an honest and competent wrench/LBS. All this is all recent within a year. If I go back further I have more stories of shoddy repair work.

How do you go about finding your LBS? Any suggestions???

Retro Grouch 

Check out my reply to: "Went to LBS had a sub-par experience. Am I over reacting?"

bkaapcke

O.K., you're particular about how you like things on your ride(s). There's nothing wrong with that, I'm that way too. Unfortunately, the only answer is to do it yourself. This does mean buying more tools and a maintenance book or two, but the expense is offset by the savings in money and aggravation. You won't regret it. bk

wrk101

+100 Do it yourself. Its a lot more convenient to do these kind of jobs yourself. You don't have to wait for the shop to be open, you don't have to haul your bike there, you don't have to wait for it to get repaired, you don't have to make a return trip to pick it up, and another trip for them to get it right, etc., etc.

The decision is pretty easy for me. First, the closest decent shop is almost an hour away. Secondly, they don't like working on older stuff, and to them, older is six years old, so forget about having them look at my 1986 Paramount, or my 1973 World Voyageur, etc.

goatalope

Sometimes a bike shop will have competent mechanics and incompetent/still learning mechanics. Maybe express (in a nice way) that you're very particular and would like someone with a lot of experience to do the job. Also, make sure everything you're asking for is on the work order ticket they give you.

Doing it yourself is sometimes the only other option.

wroomwroomoops

Expecting a wheel to be true when you pay for it being trued, is not being particular. Expecting the rear deraileur being adjusted when you paid for it to be adjusted isn't being particular, either.

Tell me, honestly: if you pay me to true your wheel and I return it to you out of round, would you be happy?

brooklyn_bike

i do 99% of my own wrenching. i've been to the majority of the bike shops in and around manhattan and brooklyn.

these places are good: b's bikes (greenpoint) bicycle works / velo cult (lower east side) and recycle bicycle (dumbo)

Northwestrider

Doing it ourselves is more fun, interesting, quicker, cheaper, and usually less frustrating than going to an LBS.

wroomwroomoops

I find your demurring perfectly reasonable. Sadly, I cannot find an LBS that would be more competent than I am, and often they don't even have the tools I have. You mentioned checking your chain with a chain-checker. Where I live, barely any LBS has a chain checker! And it appears many LBSes don't even understand the mechanism under which a chain elongates with usage.

At this stage I build my own bikes and wheels. I do all the truing, adjustments, replacements myself. I've even built some tools by myself (e. g. a tool to remove the snap-ring from SRAM and some other gear hubs). It's no rocket surgery, and you sound like an intelligent person who'll pick up the skills in no time. Check Sheldon Brown's website for a treasure trove of knowledge on bike maintenance and repair.

wroomwroomoops

A big, fat YES to all those.

But you forgot to add to the list: better done!

surreal

We need a danged sticky about how the LBS sucks, and we all know it, and we know why. And,a counter-sticky about how itis important/nice to support your LBS anyway.

Just my opinion.
-rob

ultraman6970

Do the stuff yourself and stop complaining. U have wasted more money and time going to the shop than buying the tools and do those simple things yourself.

Repack that dura ace hub is like 20 minutes job if you dont know what are u doing. The dereuleur hanger problem was an easy 5 mins fix at home.

Do the stuff yourself dude.

Igo

In the 70's I would have shuttered at these stories with disbelief. Today it is my experience almost anywhere I go. I deal with contractors everyday. All of them are full of crap up to their eyeballs. I haven't talked to an honest one in 10 years.
OK. With all that being said, the most pleasant experience I've have with any business organization in the last 10 years has been just now, as I return to cycling. JT's Bike Shop in Henderson NV. Thus far, the first place I've been fully relaxed doing business with in years. So far.
But again, I bought the books and I'm getting the tools because I have a knack and I like doing this kind of work and I still believe in American craftsmanship....even if it is only my own.

Burton

Beats me! I guess if you don`t mind speending 10 x the amount in tools that it would take to have the job done by a shop then by all means buy the tools. And before anyone says I`m exaggerating - I have over $5.000 in bicycle related tools and if there was a choice - that number would be a lot lower. And there are some tools I still don`t have because the demand doesn`t warrent it.

My own personal opinion is that most LBS have been more oriented to selling bikes than repairing them for the past five years simply because customers were chasing the latest and greatest technology and weren`t all that interest in repairing what they had. As a result they were hiring more sales people and less qualified mechanics.

But you might see a change in that next year. In Montreal at least, the demand for repairs has skyrocketed and the sales of new bikes is apparently down accross the board. Maybe because of the rainy weather and maybe because people are starting to realize that newer isn`t always better.

I`ve been told by a fairly reliable source that sales of new bikes by a major chain store retailer is down by 80,000 units compared to last year and they are apparently already discounting their current inventory.

Next year the demand for repairs might encourage your LBS to hire some certified mechanics. You never know - but expressing your concerns directly to the shop manager never hurts.

ultraman6970

+1

FastJake

+10000000000000

Couldn't have said it better. Agreed on all points.

Sean Gordon

Well burton I would say you're exaggerating. I do all of my own repairs, and I put most of my tool kit together while I was still a student (read: had no money). I have a few more specialized tools now than then, but at that time the basics I had were enough to maintain mine and my friends bicycles:

cassette lockring tool
track/bb lockring tool
suntour freewheel tool
shimano splined BB tool
chain whip
15mm wrench
allen wrenches
crank puller
chain breaker
cable cutter
spoke wrench
a few cone wrenches/headset wrenches that fit your equipment
an old front fork for a truing stand
home-made work stand

As you learn more about bicycle repair, you'll become more comfortable doing the "more difficult" repairs that require the specialized tools. At that point you can buy tools as you need them, the cost of which often is similar to the the labor charges the shop would bill you to do the work. Before long, you have everything you need to maintain your own equipment, especially if you keep that equipment fairly consistent between bikes.

The normal consumer should not even approach $5,000 dollars in tooling cost. If you're spending that kind of money on tools, you had better have an account with a wholesaler. For that money I could get myself a frame building jig, frame prep tools like a head tube reamer/facer, bottom bracket facer, bottom bracket tap, headset press, fork die, as well as a fair amount of mechanics tools.

The real thing to worry about is to learning how to fix your bike.

Ira B

Many (but not all) mechanics working in a shop are watching the clock for quitting time and just working a job. Very few will work on your bike with the same loving care that you will and even the really good mechanics are always pressed for time spent on each customers ticket. This is how it is and will not change.
You best bet is to develop a relationship of loyalty with the best shop you can find so they know you by name and want your business for life or learn to do your own wrenching. Actually some combination of the two is better still.

dabac

The thing to remember is where the money is.
And that isn't in doing things as well as possible, but in doing them good enough as fast as possible.
This is what most suppliers of just about everything adapts to.
And since the majority of riders, hence the majority of customers, don't know/care enough about their bikes to recognize that sweet spot of optimum performance, "good enough" can be quite some distance away from what's actually achievable.

Part of your problem is (probably) that you're looking at the "good enough" pricing chart, but expecting "as well as possible" results.

Either face the facts that you're odd one out, try to explain that you want the premium package, and be ready to search/pay/wait for it.
Or learn to do it yourself. DIY is probably the surest way to get rid of that residual doubt whether it could have been done better or not.

gyozadude

Hmmm.... Sounds like there's opportunity in America to revive the meaning of "craftsmanship" and not just make it a marketing term, but really meaning that there's experience and expertise in a LBS that customers can trust will do as well as possible constrained by labour costs of course.

Wonder if that concept and the training could be franchised? I'm about 20 years now into a technical career and it's time for a change. It was awfully fun in the old days to learn all about building and fixing bikes. And what fun and pride it was to take a dirt cheap set of lugs and tubes and braze them together, albeit ugly, but to then ride it and experience the confidence of something I put together. It's a great feeling that ought to be shared with customers who are willing to pay a fair price for a job that ought to be well done.

Burton

No Sean, no exaggeration. If anything I`m being conservative. The shops I work in are very professional and have covered everything on your list except a frame jig . They do have a lot of additional items you left off. Of course you`re just considering doing basic maintenaince and shops have to deal with accidented bikes with twisted forks and dropouts, seized components on bikes that have been left outside all winter for years with no maintenaince, and stripped threads on components someone tried to adjust themselves at home.

A rear derailleur tool is about $60. The charge for straightening a rear derailleur with the tool is only $6 including labor. Thats one of the most common issues with bikes. Same for the tools to correctly align dropouts.

But some things I`ve never been too clear on. If I need a BB tool AND a lockon bolt AND a 600mm long wrench to properly install and torque a bottom bracket - how can the average home mechanic possibly undoing that with simple BB tool and a Canadian Tire spanner??? And how could they hope to possibly install it correctly with just those tools??

I`m very aware that not all shops are completely equipped, but I also think you`re underestimating the cost of whats needed to properly service even your own bike. Maybe you can explain to me how you achieve the minimum torque requirements to install bottom brackets and cassette lock rings and pedals without a torque wrench. Oh yeah - loose components are fairly common on installations that show up at shops here where someone has done the assembly themselves using components bought over the Internet.

Maybe some of those LBS are subpar simply because they also underestimated what it takes to properly service bikes -- and keep clients happy.

Burton

No Sean, no exaggeration and yup - I don`t pay retail prices. Have covered everything on your list except a frame jig and a few items you left off. Of course you`re just considering doing basic maintenaince and shops have to deal with accidented bikes with twisted forks and dropouts, seized components on bikes that have been left outside all winter for years with no maintenaince, and stripped threads on components someone tried to adjust themselves at home.

A rear derailleur tool is about $60. The charge for straightening a rear derailleur with the tool is only $6 including labor. Same for the tools to correctly align dropouts.

But some things I`ve never been too clear on. If I need a BB tool AND a lockon bolt AND a 600mm long wrench to properly install and torque a bottom bracket - how can the average home mechanic possibly undoing that with simple BB tool and a Canadian Tire spanner??? And how could they hope to possibly install it correctly with just those tools??

I`m very aware that not all shops are completely equipped, but I also think you`re underestimating the cost of whats needed to properly service even your own bike. Maybe you can explain to me how you achieve the minimum torque requirements to install bottom brackets and cassette lock rings and pedals without a torque wrench. Oh yeah - loose components are fairly common on installations that show up at shops here where someone has done the assembly themselves using components bought over the Internet.

wrk101

While I have a sizable investment in tools, for the repairs done in the OP, we are not talking a lot of money. A couple of cone wrenches, a spoke wrench, cable cutters. I bought an RD hanger straightener off ebay for less than $30, so that is not too bad either. But unless you are going to do quite a few repairs, I would not bother with that one yet.

I find it cost effective to just buy a couple of really good tools first, along with tools that fit your current bike (a lot of stuff is not standardized on a bike). As you do more work, expand your tool collection. In the meantime, you will need to find a good LBS to do the more technical stuff.

I have bought at least half of my tools used, and have upgraded over the years. If you buy right used, you can usually sell the tools off and get your money back out of them when you upgrade. I have upgraded my work stand (multiple times), truing stand, derailleur hanger tool, chain tool and cable tool. Old cable tool and chain tool broke, so they ended up in the trash. Other than the chain tool, my other upgrades were all bought used.

radshark

I rarely use the LBS. Nice guys, knowledgeable, and their work is very good. I don't mind paying for that when I need it. But I simply refuse to pay 50% more for parts and accessories. I'll happily pay a few bucks more then price + shipping from an on-line retailer - but that's my limit. But right now the local prices are just too far out of whack.

I'm sure they have a different perspective...

Ranger63

Wow...
Same problem here.
The pro shop (they do the setups for the premier local racing club as well as their own team)wanted $50. more and was 3x as far away.
The shop that installed the new SRAM 10spd chain and 12-27 cassette on my CF ride, had done work on several of my bikes, were closer, were able to get the work completed in a shorter timeframe, and..were cheaper.
The old adage "You get what you pay for" came into play the first ride out.
Keeping pace with the fast crowd I upshifted to the 16t and..the chain jumped.
I up shifted to the 18 and then shifted back down to the 16 and all seemed fine.
When the problem repeated itsself the 3rd time I dialed back and used a single speed setup for the rest of the ride.
Did I go back to the shop that did the work?
In a word, no.
cassettes and chains and derailleurs are a bit more fragile and a lot more expensive these days.
I took the bike BACK out to the Pro shop.
I made a point to lament the fact that all the mechanics schools are out on the west coast and drivetrains are becomming a lot more finicky with less flexibility in how well they operate if not set up correctly.
Owner of the shop asked me if I'd be interested in a 3 statudays in the fall course (8am-1pm) covering the basics on setups and installations of drivetrains on the 3 major component mnfg. (SRAM Shimano Campy)
won't exactly be cheap but it'll be limited to 4 students per instructor and it'll be 100% hands on.
If effect, just learning about th course was worth the drive out. Getting the drivetrain was worth the $$