Cheap "sealed" hubs.
 

Getting ready to try my first wheel build and am definitely trying to do it on the cheap. I've heard a lot of recommendations for Formula hubs, the reasoning seeming to be that they are inexpensive but aren't cup and cone type hubs (correct me if i'm wrong).

Recently, I've also seen some hubs made by "Wheel Masters" that are just over half the price of the Formula ones.
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_...ducts_id=34430

I know there have already been a number of threads about similar subjects, but I guess I still don't get it. Is some sort of failure going to be much more likely with hubs like this, and if so, why?

Thanks!

That hub takes a screw-on freewheel, an obscelete technology. Formula hubs use a Shimano pattern spline and can take current Shimano and SRAM rear cassettes.

The word "CHEAP" indicates that you are watching you pennies as most of us are. I always like to approach things from a value perspective as well. Price and cost are not always the same thing. If you bought a hub that was twice as much but lasted 5 times as long with less trouble, it would in fact, be the "cheapest" in the long run but cost you more today. Trying to find that point where you don't blow your budget but get the most you possibly can for your dollars without buying something that only looks like a bargain due to the low initial price is the key.

In my opinion, it is hard to beat Shimano hubs as far as bang for the buck or "value" is concerned. For a MTB hub, buy at least Deore. They can be had for $25 - $35 depending on front or rear. The "sweet spot" in their line-up as far as I'm concerned is the XT hub (as is the Ultegra for the road groups) The bearing races are coated with Boron, the second hardest substance next to diamonds. This coating is only on the XT and XTR hubs which cost quite a bit more. Well maintained, these will outlast many hubs costing lots more. Spare parts are readily available and will be for a long time. Any shop mechanic anywhere can work on them.

When you consider the time and effort you will put forth to build your wheels, why not put the absolute best parts you can afford into them - even if that means you have to save a little bit longer before beginning? In my experience, this is the "cheapest" way to go. I have wheels I built this way with many many years of service that cost my only $20 or $30 more than what you are proposing. Divide that by ten years or more of service without issue and you can see the value.

A hearty +1 to what blamp said about value vs cost.

There's nothing at all wrong with saving money. But look at the durability and overall service life of the part. For me this means either the Formula hubs you mentioned or using mid level or better level Shimano hubs.

The issue may not be one of actual failure but instead of quality level. Cheaper hubs are cheaper because they are made faster and with cheaper components. When stuff is made faster the tolerances are not as finely controlled. THis can lead to roughness or misalignment that produces drag. And such drag due to these misalignments shortens the lift of whatever bearings are used in the hub.

They may be fine hubs but made in some part of the world where labour is cheap. But will you be able to get new parts for them later on if the design isn't generic?

For stuff like this I like to rely on looking at reviews rather than be the one who first buys the product so they can recomend it or warn about it to others.

As a further example, I have a friend who is always looking for the absolute lowest priced accessories. He buys a particular SPD compatible pedal for his MTB and insists that it is every bit as good as Shimano but costs half as much as similar models I own. In the past 10 years, he has purchased these on three occasions as they wear out. I still have the same original pedals that were "twice as much" I have $50 invested and he has $75. Add to that one event not finished due to a broken pedal mid-ride and put a value on that. I would suggest that these "cheap" pedals cost twice as much in real terms.

If you are going to buy "cheap" hubs then you had better buy replacement parts up front:

- Cones
- Freehub

Cause you ain't gonna find new ones later. Especially where the freehub is concerned. I for example stock replacement freehubs for my generic Shimano compatible cassette hubs.

...else why not just buy the real thing - knowing that for the next 3-5 years chances are pretty good that your local Shimano dealer will be able to order the cones and freehub you need should the need arise.

=8-)

There's something to be said as to the power of VOLUME + WORLDWIDE DEALERSHIP and DISTRIBUTION.

=8-)

Where does one get cones for an XTR M950 rear hub? Three years after building the wheel, I couldn't find any. I checked 5 LBS's and they didn't have any and said they couldn't get any. In checking the internet, I couldn't find any US suppliers. I eventually ordered 3 from an England "LBS," but they only had 2 in stock and said they wouldn't be getting any more. I gave up on my Exage hubs because of the same reason, and went with the M950.

Nothing bad about freewheel hubs inherently ,
As a single speed hub, they are is still popular.

I use an Un Cheap Phil Wood Freewheel hub, on my loaded touring bike.

it's been fine for decades..

New ones using 135 wide axle, narrower 7 speed freewheel ,
the spokes are evenly tensioned, and dish is nil.

Re: #7, for XTR, rear hub is 1/4" ball , axle 10x1, just get a cone that meets that spec..

It doesn't have to be XTR M950, exclusively.. to get you down the road..

Did you call Shimano directly? They have an 800 number...

They should be able to redirect you...

=8-)

Did you try here: http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...id=62118158111

As mentioned above, most of these are interchangable hence the long term value of buying mainstream stuff.

Two LBS's sent me home with "close enough" cones. I knew they weren't, and they didn't seal up well enough to last long. Too short, too long, offset from cone bearing surface to gasket isn't correct with not enough play room in seating the freehub dust shield... Putting 6-7k miles on the bike each year, I don't want to have to be repacking the rear hub every other weekend.

Don't mean to hijack here but 6 - 7K commuting in Minnesota would justify Phil Wood hubs or something similar to me. If Shimano, then I have found XT to be more durable than XTR. XTR is intended for race setups and is very good indeed but XT gets most of the same design features with more durability at less than half the price. YMMV.

there are pretty good rubber seals coming on the lower price point hubs
on the bikes LBS are selling for $400 these days

Something I noticed over the years with "sealed bearing" hubs is that sometimes, it means there are either rubber contact seals or labyrinth type seals. And sometimes, it means sealed "cartridge" bearing hubs. The two are different but unfortunately, a catalog, especially online, may not present sufficient information to make that determination. So it may be worth while to go and peruse and buy from your LBS. The price for a good set of sealed cartridge bearing hubs can vary. But amortized over the years of service, and the ability to swap cartridges and make an old hub run like new may be well worth the cost of buying them where you can examine the fit and finish of the product. I think I spent around $80 on a pair of Specialized sealed cartridge bearing hubs 20 years ago at my favourite LBS. I'm still riding them, and replaced just the right, FW side bearing twice and all the rest are original and still pretty slick. I think, even with $8/cartridge bearing for some high end ones, that's only still around $5/yr in hub costs and minimal maintenance.

Harris Cyclery has Shimano Deore rear for $36, which has rubber cups that seal the bearings. They are probably as good as cheaper sealed systems.

Harris is closing out their track hubs, so if you want a bargain try those.

^^ I think I might do just that, thanks!

I'm definitely looking for a good 'value' which is why I asked about these hubs in the first place (though there are others at this pricepoint from other makers, I'm not specifically asking about the Wheel Masters brand).. There are also bike hubs on Amazon that are literally $5 shipped, so if cost were my only consideration, I would've just ordered those. But I figure if those are the bottom of the barrel, the ones that cost 5 times as much have got to be at least decent? Right?

I should clarify that part of the reason I'm doing this wheel build is a friend of mine wants some specific pattern of colored spokes. I've been wanting to learn the wheel build thing so I said hey, you pay for the parts and I'll build the wheel with the spokes you desire, solely for the experience. Win win for both of us. Probably. :innocent:

She is not a bike commuter and I don't see her putting in thousands of miles on this or any other bike, so getting top of the line components would be a bit of a waste. I of course don't want to put in the time lacing up utter crap either, but spending $90 on a pair of hubs vs $50 is a very significant difference for her. Farther down the road who knows, but as far as I'm concerned, $150 over several years would not be a worse value than $90 right now. I mean, I don't see her getting stranded somewhere from using cheap hubs, like you would with a broken pedal.. (but if this has ever happened to someone who used cheap hubs, this is the kind of thing I want to hear about!)

And again, my base question is WHY are these not as good? I can understand old cup and cone design being dubious, but these claim to be "sealed" which I assumed meant they have some sort of bearing cartridge. I'm getting the impression now though that this may not be the case.

Somebody above said that the tolerances are not as finely controlled in the manufacturing process for cheaper hubs. This surely makes sense to me, but then wouldn't the same logic dictate that Shimano and Formula hubs for $40-50 must be garbage, since there are hubs out there that cost upwards of a grand?

And for the record, threading for a screw-on freewheel is in fact what I'm looking for. She doesn't want more than 1 gear so I plan to use a BMX style freewheel.

Cup and cone are far from dubious. Do not fear them at all. As far as "sealed", the Deore hubs mentioned above have rubber seals. Most hubs use some sort of seal - labyrinth or the like. Based on what you purpose is, these may suit you fine. As far as them being not as good, that comes with context. It sounds like they will suit the purpose of this build. I approach everything I do with a goal of maximum longevity for reasonably spend so my previous answer was colored by that. In the future, you will get better answers if you give more information up front. When you make "cheap" so primary a factor that it is in the title of the thread, it might send the wrong impression.

Not sure why you consider cup and cone designs "dubious". The technology is proven and inexpensive to manufacture; it does require manual tension adjustment and periodic overhauls. To me, the last is actually an advantage, because I know that all I will have to source is new standard ball bearings and a decent grease, and I'll be good to go. With cartridge bearings, it's my impression that the bearings aren't standardized, and you might easily end up without a bearing source at overhaul time.

My few-year-old Giant Yukon came with wheels that had decent WTB rims and stainless spokes, but Formula hubs. When the rear hub failed after about 1000 miles, I was pretty disappointed to find out that the cheap Formula hub couldn't be rebuilt because it had cheap pressed-in bearings, so I had to throw the wheel away and get a decent new one built with an XT rear hub. Some people may wear out the rims first with rim brakes, so hub longevity might not matter so much to them, but I've got disc brakes and would like to keep my wheels for 1000s of miles.

In my area, there are shops that also sell used components. Since it sounds like you're very price-sensitive on this build, why not see if you can pick up a pair of still-good Deore or better used rim-brake hubs? Overhauling them with all new ball bearings shouldn't cost very much. At my favorite local shop, you can pick up a decent used Shimano rim brake hub for $5-15.

Fair enough, I'm just trying to get across that I do appreciate value. Yet, at the same time, the person paying the tab does want to go as 'cheap' as possible, and is trusting my judgment on where to draw the line between the two. So right now I'm probing for some information about this range of hubs because I haven't had much luck in finding user reviews for any of them. I really appreciate all the input so far.

I guess I don't necessarily think cup and cone is dubious by design -- that's just what I thought I had gathered from searching for related threads on this site. Until very recently, I didn't even know there was anything else.

I may go this route, I've replaced bearings before and there is a shop near my house with lots of used parts. My worry about doing this is that I just don't know how thrilled they would be about me opening the hubs up in the shop to see if the cone surfaces are pitted. It seems like I'd be better off with some low quality hubs in new condition, than some good quality hubs that have been around the block a few million times. Thoughts on this?

With a bit of practice, you should be able to feel grittiness/grinding of bad (used) hubs.

Again a no brainer in my opinion. I would take a used XT hub with a fresh rebuild over any bargain hub and still expect more miles with less spend. They are built with more precision and have the boron coating.

Nope. If hubs are close to properly adjusted, as good ones are likely to be, they can last practically forever.

You should be able to feel if the races are smooth; with QR hubs you should expect maybe a tiny bit of play if they're adjusted right. If they're a little bit tight they may still be good too, if they're not very old - that's a fluid-feeling notchiness rather than gritty.

Best value: second-hand upper-tier Shimano. Forged, proper bearings you can adjust and easily replace.