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Fixed Cup stuck and Sheldon method not succeeding. Help, please.

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Fixed Cup stuck and Sheldon method not succeeding. Help, please.

Old 07-27-11, 10:20 PM
  #26  
Ira B
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Slather it with ATF overnight.

Get a big assed pipe wrench.

Get a chunk of dry ice. (available in many supermarkets now)

Heat the BB with a heat gun, stove top, propane torch, whatever. Enough to almost but not quite damage the paint.

Working quickly, drop several chunks of dry ice into the BB side of the cup, count to 20 and heave away with the wrench.

TINK! it should break loose.
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Old 07-27-11, 10:31 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by larwyn View Post
All penetrating oils are not equal. PB blaster seems quite popular and I keep a can of that around but the absolute best, according to many, is a 1:1 mixture of acetone and automatic transmission fluid.
only the best among people who haven't used Kroil. Acetone and ATF aren't miscible, I fail to see why anyone thinks either is a suitable penetrating oil. PB blaster or liquid wrench or any of a number of real penetrating oils (not WD40) will work just find for this application.
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Old 07-28-11, 06:28 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by dscheidt View Post
only the best among people who haven't used Kroil. Acetone and ATF aren't miscible, I fail to see why anyone thinks either is a suitable penetrating oil. PB blaster or liquid wrench or any of a number of real penetrating oils (not WD40) will work just find for this application.
Because it has a proven record of out performing other products at a fraction of the cost?

But, I don't care whether anyone here tries it or not. I know it works because I have used it, you know it will not work because you know more about chemistry than I do. Results trumps theory in real life every time, but on the internet, not so much. Only those willing to try the mixture will ever know for sure. I have only been doing mechanical work for the last 50 years so my experience is somewhat limited.
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Old 07-28-11, 06:44 AM
  #29  
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I'm not sure about the miscibility, but at least one of the loosening oils I've used screams "highly flammable" in multiple places on the canister, so I think that putting a torch to the site is probably not a great idea.

Love the dry ice thought. I'll swing by a tire shop this a.m. to see if their impact wrench will work or merely break the bolt. Then, if no success, on to the LBS to see what tools & vises & break bars we can sort out.

Cheers!
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Old 07-28-11, 07:02 AM
  #30  
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I finally located this test result which speaks for itself;

(quoted from a machinists forum)
Machinist's Workshop magazine actually tested penetrants for break out torque on rusted nuts. Significant results! They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist, Bud Baker.
Don't forget the April 2007 "Machinist's Workshop" magazine comparison
test.

*They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants with
the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a
"scientifically rusted" environment.


*Penetrating oil ..... Average load*

None ..................... 516 pounds
WD-40 .................. 238 pounds
PB Blaster ............. 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds
Kano Kroil ............ 106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds

*The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission
fluid and acetone.*
*Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one
particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now
use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about
as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.
(end of quote)
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Old 07-28-11, 11:20 AM
  #31  
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Well, Success has been achieved. . . But not without a bit of drama.

Local tire shop. I've got my Sheldon tool affixed. I showed the frame to the man wielding the pneumatic wrench. At first, he misunderstands and just takes it off. Then, he understands. But in tightening it down, he does it too slowly (I think). Result is stripped threads on the bolt and the nut spins freely. Sheldon tool is now stuck. Ugh.

Young grease monkey comes over. I got a crescent that'll fit that, he says. Other mechanic throws in the towel and walks off. Young guy looks at bolt sticking out (3.5") and says: Hmmm. That'll have to come off.

So, I hold frame and he puts super-dremel tool onto the pneumatic hose. Watch your eyes, he says, as I'm holding frame. He has no protective glasses, and proceeds to grind into the nut. Hot sparks flying everywhere. I'm jumping a bit as some bounce off my arm and legs, but I see the main flow of sparks is going right onto his bare left forearm. Isn't that hot?, I ask. Nah, I'm used to it, says he. Quite a bit of grinding is required to cut through both nut and bolt. Pneumatic chisel finishes the work.

I'm ready to thank him and move on to LBS, but he says he's killing time waiting for a parts delivery and isn't ready to quit. Into the junk bin in search of another bolt and nuts. Takes a while, but he finds 5/8 inch bolt, self-locking nut and another nut.

It's a variant of the Sheldon tool, and I clearly think better. . . if only because it worked. Self-locking nut on backwards well down onto bolt. Then insert through BB and cup. Then second nut onto outside. Cinch the two bolts tight. Hold outer with wrench, tighten inner with pneumatic gun. Keep cranking. Fixed cup pops loose and unscrews!

My kind of grease monkey. Great kid. Had a great chat while we're doing this. As this is the shop my aging mum uses (and she often drops off chocolate chip cookies), they ain't accepting money. This is Kansas.

I'm installing the Phil now. Shortest and oldest (new bearings) on hand is a 113mm. Seems like it will do. Haven't cranked it down hard, yet. I have a 115mm if needed.

Anyway. Dat's da report.

Thanks to all.
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1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
(replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)
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Old 07-28-11, 12:23 PM
  #32  
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Those guys in tire shops see lots of stuck, seized, galled, and stripped fasteners. I know, that was me for 9 years (front end alignment and brake mechanic) early in my working career.

Glad you found the right mechanic to help you...........
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Old 07-28-11, 12:38 PM
  #33  
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That looks like exactly what he was doing (brake repair and alignment). Nice young guy. He'd have been a drinking pal some years ago. Straight forward, zero pretensions. Didn't have to argue about whether it was French threaded or not. Just eye'd it over and figured out what to try next.

Yup. Good man.

Cheers!
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1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
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Old 07-28-11, 01:30 PM
  #34  
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Good news .... you owe him some cookies !
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Old 07-29-11, 10:17 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by larwyn View Post
Because it has a proven record of out performing other products at a fraction of the cost?

But, I don't care whether anyone here tries it or not. I know it works because I have used it, you know it will not work because you know more about chemistry than I do. Results trumps theory in real life every time, but on the internet, not so much. Only those willing to try the mixture will ever know for sure. I have only been doing mechanical work for the last 50 years so my experience is somewhat limited.
Sir, that was a mature and graceful way to answer that, you just made my day. Backing it up with a source a bit later didn't hurt either.
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Old 07-29-11, 04:16 PM
  #36  
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Nice! Be sure to post some pictures when it's all cleaned up, too.
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Old 07-29-11, 07:21 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by larwyn View Post
Because it has a proven record of out performing other products at a fraction of the cost?

But, I don't care whether anyone here tries it or not. I know it works because I have used it, you know it will not work because you know more about chemistry than I do. Results trumps theory in real life every time, but on the internet, not so much. Only those willing to try the mixture will ever know for sure. I have only been doing mechanical work for the last 50 years so my experience is somewhat limited.
No, I know it's inferior because I've tried it; on real fasteners, stuck parts, and mechanisms that hadn't moved in 50 years. It didn't work worth a bottle of spit. It might have worked for the poorly designed test some reader of Machinst's Workshop came up with

Penetrating oil formulas tend to be empirically derived; were acetone and ATF a superior penetrating oil, someone would be putting it in a can and selling it, even if their theory said it wouldn't work. No one does. What's that tell you?
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Old 07-29-11, 10:13 PM
  #38  
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Great thread... Just in case hope you put grease to the threads
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Old 07-30-11, 06:09 AM
  #39  
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You may want to try securing the cup in a bench vise and then grabbing hold of the frame and turning. I have found that to be an effective way to remove those cups in the past.
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Old 07-30-11, 06:26 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by dscheidt View Post
No, I know it's inferior because I've tried it; on real fasteners, stuck parts, and mechanisms that hadn't moved in 50 years. It didn't work worth a bottle of spit. It might have worked for the poorly designed test some reader of Machinst's Workshop came up with

Penetrating oil formulas tend to be empirically derived; were acetone and ATF a superior penetrating oil, someone would be putting it in a can and selling it, even if their theory said it wouldn't work. No one does. What's that tell you?
It tells me that you are convinced that a 50:50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid does not work satisfactorily as a penetrating oil.

Everyone is free to use whatever penetrating oil they wish, I am not trying to sell you a bottle of the stuff. Just thought that it might be of some help to the original poster who was trying to remove a frozen part without the benefit of a shop full of tools. I, and many others, on the other hand continue to use the mixture on rusted in place fasteners and those fasteners continue to break loose easily enough after a good soaking. I know that it has worked for some of us on equipment from the turn of the century (1900). Maybe we are just not doing it right?
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Old 07-30-11, 09:48 AM
  #41  
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Well, it seems that my oldest & smallest Phil BB seems to fit just right. It has factory installed replacement bearings, so it's good as new. Size 113mm.



The point of putting grease on the threads is an interesting thought. Usually, Phil people suggest you put blue loctite. I cleaned the threads with a rag, but was/am still in test mode. I suppose I could pull it back off and grease 'em a bit. On the other hand, I don't think this will need to come back off in my lifetime. It's a tight fit, so I don't need the loctite, either.

New rings. Yeah, the outer is not really a 93 ring, but it's a good looker. The inner is a NOS 38t ring. VERY happy to have that (Thanks, Chas!).



I have some Campy pedals, complete with toe loop, in French thread that I intended to install, but my Zeus pedals that have been on this bike since the late-70s are quite a bit lighter. Freshly repacked bearings and the races are perfect. SO, the Zeus stay on and the Campy pedals go back into the French parts stash.

Still some cleaning to do. Chain is encrusted with old oil, so it's bathing in degreaser. After a re-oiling, we'll be back and ready to roll.

Thanks to each of you!
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1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
(replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)
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Old 07-30-11, 11:10 AM
  #42  
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loctite is fine. use something(grease, antisieze, loctite, whatever) though if you ever want to remove it again.
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Old 07-30-11, 11:22 AM
  #43  
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Great! That looks much better now!
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Old 07-30-11, 03:54 PM
  #44  
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". . . if you EVER want to remove it again."

Okay. Scare tactics do work.

So, I took it back out, wiped and re-greased the threads.

This is the old-fashioned style Phil BB.



Factory replaced bearings.

A bit of grease showing as it's rings are tightened back into place.



'Course now they go in so easily I'll worry about them working loose.

Had a pedal come unscrewed once. Sent me flying!

Anyway, the primary observation of this thread is that the #1 Sheldon Tool is not as good as the Improved or #2 Sheldon Tool. I hope this proves useful to someone else some time.

Cheers!
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1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
(replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)
1985 ALAN Record (Glued & Screwed. A gift.)
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