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wheelbuilding - eyelet offset to which side of hub?

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wheelbuilding - eyelet offset to which side of hub?

Old 04-05-12, 11:46 AM
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BrettUnder
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wheelbuilding - eyelet offset to which side of hub?

New here, but have gotten lots of useful help from this forum...

So, everything I can find says that eyelets offset to the right are laced to the right flange on the hub, eyelets offset to the left go to the left hub flange. It seems to me if you do the opposite - left offset eyelet laced to right flange,etc. you are effectively increasing the center to flange width of the hub. You could also think of this as effectively using a smaller diameter rim. So, it seems you would get a stronger wheel building this way. I haven't found any discussion about this, and it seems pretty simple and logical, so what am I missing? Something about the cross lacing that makes this difficult/impossible?

Thanks.
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Old 04-05-12, 11:54 AM
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A photo may explain my question better....
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Old 04-05-12, 12:15 PM
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The problem I would see is that with the normal method, you end up with a cross section that is a parallelogram and doesn't have a thin possible weak point. With the alternate method, you see how the spokes cross? that makes a high stress point since the leverage would be much higher at that point instead of being spread out like the normal method.

That is my take on it. No idea if its legit or not, but I just don't like how the spokes crossover, that spells weaker point.
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Old 04-05-12, 12:27 PM
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Another photo that explains it a bit more accurately, I found on another website. BMW motorcycle wheel...

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Old 04-05-12, 12:41 PM
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Oh interesting, I didn't know that motorcycle wheels were laced like that. The idea then must have merit if motorcycle companies lace like that.
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Old 04-05-12, 01:05 PM
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Certainly not an expert here, but that doesn't stop anybody-
The bracing angle looks like it would be better, BUT
The eyelet is likely angled toward the same side, in order to keep spoke tension perpendicular as possible to the eyelet and spreading the force around the circumference of the eyelet..

Your method would result in most of the tension being pulled on the inner side of the eyelet.
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Old 04-05-12, 01:34 PM
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I think the issue is that the motorcycle hub and rim are designed for this (lacing hub flange to the opposite-side rim eyelets), the spoke holes in the hub and the eyelets in the rim are angled appropriately. The bicycle hub and rim are not.

In fact, I think most motorcycle wheels are not designed for it either. Look at some guides to spoking m/c wheels. I think the pictured BMW wheel is an oddball. It actually looks like it might be a sidecar wheel, not a two-wheel m/c wheel.
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Old 04-05-12, 01:35 PM
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I believe that is not common on motorcycle rims. The BMW rim pictured I believe was done for mounting tubeless tires. If you look at the cross section, the spoke holes are outside the tire, there might be other benefits, but I believe that was the main motivator.

Edit: and to answer jyl, the rear wheel on their dual sport bike was like that. It had a single sided swingarm. I forget the model number. I've seen one in the flesh.
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Old 04-05-12, 02:41 PM
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The nipples wouldn't seat well on the rim if laced that way IMO, the spokes could bend .
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Old 04-05-12, 02:50 PM
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pretty sure the BMW wheel pictured is a special build.

This is actually a pretty simple solution.

Think of the 'normal' one as a regular glass cup, while the 'stronger?' is a wine glass. regular glass cup is stronger, because its narrowest point is wider.
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Old 04-05-12, 03:10 PM
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I tried the high-bracing-angle way once. The eyelets in the rim were angled so that the nipples wouldn't come through the holes straight when laced that way. All the spokes were bent at the nipple when the wheel was tensioned up. I took it apart and laced it the regular way.
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Old 04-05-12, 08:27 PM
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There are some BMX rims that are designed to be laced that way. That is the only time it should be done. It is a little harder to lace, but only because since they are double wall, and that the holes are close to the opposite side, it can be hard to get the nipples started.

If you have a rim that is supposed to be laced that way, it will have a warning sticker on it telling you that it must be crossed laced or the spokes may break.
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Old 04-05-12, 09:16 PM
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Shimano uses crossover lacing, but with special rims and spokes:



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Old 04-05-12, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
Shimano uses crossover lacing, but with special rims and spokes:



Or they did. Not sure how many years ago they abandoned that design.
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Old 04-05-12, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Or they did. Not sure how many years ago they abandoned that design.
When ever they screw up the product just goes away like the early 10 speed DA hubs with the inboard bearings on the drive side.
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Old 04-05-12, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Or they did. Not sure how many years ago they abandoned that design.
My bad. Read: "used"

Last edited by Reynolds; 04-05-12 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 04-05-12, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BrettUnder View Post


A photo may explain my question better....
Yes, But.....


The main advantage of crossover lacing, is that it reduces the relative difference in tension between the left and right flanges.

The ratio of left to right flange tension is roughly proportional to the ratio of their center to flange distances. (inverted) So if the two CTF distances are 36 and 20mm, the land the rim is drilled right down the middle the L/R tension ratio will be 20:36 (or 5:9 if you like). So the spokes on the left will have 55.5% of the tension of those on the right.

Offset drilling used as intended actually makes things worse, because it subtracts distance from both sides, so instead of 20:36, you have 18:34 (2mm offset) and left side tension drops to 53% of the right. if you build the rim crossed over 20:26 becomes 22:38 and the left side tension improves to 58%.

So that's the benefit, and the greater the amount of offset crossed over, the higher the left side tension can go.

But there's a hitch. Most rims drilled offset are drilled that way because the rims curvature has the nipples pointing to the side slightly, improving the nipple/spoke alignment. When you build crossed over, the nipple is pointing the wrong way, and often cannot flex to the line of the spoke. This not only looks bad, but can cause spoke breakage at the first thread if not built very carefully.

I've built a few touring wheels crossed over, and enjoyed some success, but it's a pain, so I generally shop for rims with zero or minimum offset, based on the idea that if I can't make things better, at least I can avoid making them worse.
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Old 04-06-12, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by davidad View Post
When ever they screw up the product just goes away like the early 10 speed DA hubs with the inboard bearings on the drive side.
they're still around if you look and they are among the lighter DA hubs.
I have 2 of them, but I'm light weight.
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Old 04-06-12, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AEO View Post
they're still around if you look and they are among the lighter DA hubs.
I have 2 of them, but I'm light weight.
Shimano doesn't make them anymore. The idea of a free hub was to get the right side bearings out nearer the end of the axle to keep them from bending or breaking. They had to go with an oversize axle to help solve the problem of the design.
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Old 04-06-12, 05:18 PM
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Good rule of thumb for things like this: There's no way the Paid engineers who designed the offset rim didn't think of this and decide against it.
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Old 04-07-12, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by IthaDan View Post
Good rule of thumb for things like this: There's no way the Paid engineers who designed the offset rim didn't think of this and decide against it.
Unfortunately, the paid executives, and sales force usually have the last say. The lack of this design may well mean they are afraid to try something new, thinking it will not sell.
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Old 04-07-12, 09:42 AM
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It won't do anything for lateral strength, it will affect lateral stiffness. But lateral strength and stiffness is not really an issue with bicycle wheels. Radial strength and stiffness is much more needed than lateral. Except for trick riding where lateral forces can be greater. For normal road riding, the lateral strength and stiffness of a normally laced wheel is plenty.
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Old 04-07-12, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by davidad View Post
Shimano doesn't make them anymore. The idea of a free hub was to get the right side bearings out nearer the end of the axle to keep them from bending or breaking. They had to go with an oversize axle to help solve the problem of the design.
It uses an aluminum axle, so it needed to be oversized anyways, but it's still badly engineered for heavy applications. Which I'm not, so they were perfect for my needs. Way cheaper as well. I bought them for $125 each, which was half the price of a proper 7850 or 7900 model at the time.
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Old 04-08-12, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SweetLou View Post
It won't do anything for lateral strength, it will affect lateral stiffness. But lateral strength and stiffness is not really an issue with bicycle wheels. Radial strength and stiffness is much more needed than lateral. Except for trick riding where lateral forces can be greater. For normal road riding, the lateral strength and stiffness of a normally laced wheel is plenty.
I thought the rear wheel needs more lateral strength than the front to counteract the torque of the drive train, thats why you seldom see radially spoked rear wheels(unless of a very deep V design). As for the cross spoking, wouldn't that load up the spoke more at the flange(where most breaks occur) because of the increased angle of the spoke head at the flange. Always looking for enlightenment, thanks, Brian
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Old 04-08-12, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by calstar View Post
I thought the rear wheel needs more lateral strength than the front to counteract the torque of the drive train, thats why you seldom see radially spoked rear wheels(unless of a very deep V design). As for the cross spoking, wouldn't that load up the spoke more at the flange(where most breaks occur) because of the increased angle of the spoke head at the flange. Always looking for enlightenment, thanks, Brian
"Lateral" is side to side. Longitudinal is front to back, or since it's spinning, torque.

radial lacing does not behave well under torque, but it's the strongest for lateral strength.
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