Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Ultegra Brifter upgrade, now what cassette and derailluer?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Ultegra Brifter upgrade, now what cassette and derailluer?

Old 05-03-12, 05:43 PM
  #1  
aknoch
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ultegra Brifter upgrade, now what cassette and derailleur??

I have a Soma Double Cross do-it-all that I ride cyclocross and commute with. Love it.

Ran into a deal to upgrade the Soma shifters with Shimano 6603- Ultegra Brifters 3 x 10 speed. I run a Rival double crankset with 46 38 teeth in front and a 11-26 9speed rear cassette. The new Ultegra will work fine with the double in the front, but time to upgrade the rear to 10 speed. So, here are some questions:

I want to get more range in the gear combos so I am considering the Sram 11-32 rear cassette. I've read the spacing is fine to mix with the Ultegra shifter, but I am a bit confused about the derailleur cage length. I've done the formulas ((46-38)+(32-11)=29) and also read in many places that a short cage will work for the double crank in the front, but if you are going to push the teeth limit in the back would that require a long cage? For example, I am considering getting the Shimano 105 5700 rear derailleur SS (which I assume refers to short cage) which has a limit of 28t then I will be pushing it with the Sram rear cassette by 4t. I've read that hanger length and B limit screw adjustments effect how this may work, but does the cage length also contribute to stretching this limitation to handle thet Sram 11-32?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Last edited by aknoch; 05-03-12 at 05:47 PM. Reason: change spelling
aknoch is offline  
Old 05-03-12, 06:17 PM
  #2  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,748
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1965 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 166 Posts
You will need a shimano derailleur because even though the spacing on the cassette is fine the cable pull is different. The new shimano 105 5700A would work, as well as the Tiagra 10-speed, or you can go 9 speed deore
redlude97 is offline  
Old 05-03-12, 06:39 PM
  #3  
aknoch
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yes, I was anticipating needing a Shimano derailleur due to the Ultegra shifter. So I have two questions in response:

1. I see that the 5700A will take up to a 30t, but this does not answer my cage length issue. Are these unrelated?

2. I have read about using mtb components, but I don't get it. It makes sense that a 9 speed deore would have the reach due to mtb gearing, but would it index 10 shifts? But then again derailleurs are dumb mechanics that follow the indexing of the shifter. Am I thinking about this right? What are the pros/cons of using an mtb derailleur in this configuration?
aknoch is offline  
Old 05-03-12, 06:59 PM
  #4  
eugenek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I may be wrong, but I don't see how length of the cage would matter, as long as you're within the total capacity of the SS (33 teeth).

What makes you think that your new left triple brifter will work with a double crank?

Almost all current Shimano MTB drivetrains, starting with Deore, are 10-speed. However, many components you find online are older models and sometimes they are 9-speed. Have to pay attention.
eugenek is offline  
Old 05-03-12, 09:23 PM
  #5  
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 9,438

Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
You should run a Shimano 9-speed mtn. type rear derailleur with the 32 cog on the cassette. Cage length is all about chain wrap and does not set the limit for cog size. Road derailleurs, whether short or long cage are rated for no more than 28 teeth although they will usually work with a 30 cog and sometimes a 32 cog depending on not only the derailleur but also the hanger length and/or dropout geometry. To be on the safe side you need a mountain type rear derailleur. Shimano 9-speed rear derailleurs have the correct actuation ratio to work with 8, 9, or 10-speed Shimano cassettes and most 8, 9, and 10-speed shifters. The number of cogs on the cassette must be compatible with the shifter. Shimano 10-speed mountain type derailleurs do not work with 10-speed road shifters due to a change in actuation ratio.
Al1943 is offline  
Old 05-03-12, 10:28 PM
  #6  
FastJake
Constant tinkerer
 
FastJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 7,952
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked 87 Times in 73 Posts
Originally Posted by aknoch View Post
2. I have read about using mtb components, but I don't get it. It makes sense that a 9 speed deore would have the reach due to mtb gearing, but would it index 10 shifts? But then again derailleurs are dumb mechanics that follow the indexing of the shifter. Am I thinking about this right? What are the pros/cons of using an mtb derailleur in this configuration?
Your thinking is correct. All Shimano RDs will index 7,8,9,10 speeds given the proper shifters and cassette (except old pre-9-speed Dura Ace and the new 10-speed Shimano Dyna-Sys MTB stuff.)

The only disadvantage to running a mountain RD in place of a road RD is slightly more weight (basically negligible) and any crap people might give you for having a mountain RD on your road bike. Not that I would care about that.

See also:
https://sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html
https://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html
FastJake is offline  
Old 05-03-12, 11:09 PM
  #7  
AlphaDogg
I let the dogs out
 
AlphaDogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 1,934

Bikes: 2011 Fuji Roubaix 1.0, 2003 Ti Merlin Solis, & 1994 Raleigh MT200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
You will need a shimano derailleur because even though the spacing on the cassette is fine the cable pull is different.
I don't think that's true, unless there's something special with 6600.
AlphaDogg is offline  
Old 05-03-12, 11:59 PM
  #8  
Pain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You might be in trouble with a 50/34, but only a 38/46 8 tooth difference it would make up for the extra range of 11-32, so a short cage would be fine for total capacity. 5700A would probably work but your still going beyond the spec 30T large limit. A medium cage (called GS in the MTB world) 9 speed MTB derailleur would be the best solution as it would allow for a larger difference in chainrings if you ever want to change that someday. XT or XTR are the better quality ones and look fine on my Soma Double Cross.
Pain is offline  
Old 05-04-12, 01:29 AM
  #9  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,748
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1965 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 166 Posts
Originally Posted by AlphaDogg View Post
I don't think that's true, unless there's something special with 6600.
I was assuming he was running a SRAM RD since he had a SRAM crankset, otherwise if it is a shimano RD then it could possibly work with the 32T.
redlude97 is offline  
Old 05-04-12, 06:14 AM
  #10  
aknoch
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I decided to go with the Shimano 105 5700A (accomodates up to a 30t) with the Sram 11-32 cassette. I got it from Art's Cyclery (https://www.artscyclery.com/descpage-SHRD5700ABK.html) which states that it is meant for a triple. I interpret this to mean it is a long cage. Reading across forums leads me to believe that Shimano builds in some padding with these numbers so the extra 2t can be accomodated. It will be a real mix and match but a nice build:

Ultegra 6603 Brifters 3 x 10sp
Rival double carnkset 46 38
105 front derailleur
105 rear derailleur 5700A
Sram PG 1050 11-32t cassette
Sram 1051 10sp chain

This configuration should give me the go anywhere gearing that I am looking for and seems future proof if I want to swap out front rings or go to the triple crankset. I will post a post-assembly report on everything once it arrives in the mail.
aknoch is offline  
Old 05-04-12, 03:07 PM
  #11  
eugenek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
SRAM PG-1070 is only slightly more expensive and it should weigh about 30-40 g less than PG-1050.

seems future proof if I want to swap out front rings or go to the triple crankset.
Technically, 11-32t and a road triple require 43T total capacity, and your 5700A rear (assuming it's a long-cage, the one in the picture is a short-cage) is rated up to 39T. Shouldn't be a big deal though.

Once again, does no one see a problem with trying to run a double crankset with a triple shifter?
eugenek is offline  
Old 05-04-12, 03:31 PM
  #12  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,748
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1965 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 166 Posts
Originally Posted by eugenek View Post

Once again, does no one see a problem with trying to run a double crankset with a triple shifter?
Nope, you just set the limits so the lowest shift isn't used. It was what shimano used to do with all their shifters until they started making double and triple specific shifters because people were setting them up wrong
redlude97 is offline  
Old 08-15-12, 06:43 PM
  #13  
aknoch
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not sure if anyone is our there, but I am out of ideas here. I ran the RD 5700 A (SS) and could not get it to jump to the 32 ring. This was essentially like spending 400 bones to get 9 gears again. So I figured I underestimated and would go safe with a mtb rear derailleur. I got a Shimano Deore XT 10 speed (RD-M780 GS). I cannot get it to shift right. I can tune it to shift through 8 gears on either end of the cassette, but all 10 is out of the question.

Is the indexing messed up on the shifters? I bought a new cable to make extra sure. Same problem. Any ideas?
aknoch is offline  
Old 08-15-12, 06:46 PM
  #14  
AlphaDogg
I let the dogs out
 
AlphaDogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 1,934

Bikes: 2011 Fuji Roubaix 1.0, 2003 Ti Merlin Solis, & 1994 Raleigh MT200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by aknoch View Post
Not sure if anyone is our there, but I am out of ideas here. I ran the RD 5700 A (SS) and could not get it to jump to the 32 ring. This was essentially like spending 400 bones to get 9 gears again. So I figured I underestimated and would go safe with a mtb rear derailleur. I got a Shimano Deore XT 10 speed (RD-M780 GS). I cannot get it to shift right. I can tune it to shift through 8 gears on either end of the cassette, but all 10 is out of the question.

Is the indexing messed up on the shifters? I bought a new cable to make extra sure. Same problem. Any ideas?
The RD-5700A-S has a max capacity of a 28t rear cog. 10 speed MTB stuff is very strange because Shimano altered the cable pull ratio. Grab a 9 speed MTB rear derailleur and it'll work.
AlphaDogg is offline  
Old 08-15-12, 07:38 PM
  #15  
Al1943
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 9,438

Bikes: Trek 5500, Colnago C-50

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
See post #5 above. You need a 9-speed mountain type rear derailleur. Shimano's 10-speed mountain RD's are not compatible with their 10-speed road shifters.
Al1943 is offline  
Old 08-16-12, 03:52 PM
  #16  
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,682
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 657 Post(s)
Liked 540 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by aknoch View Post
Not sure if anyone is our there, but I am out of ideas here. I ran the RD 5700 A (SS) and could not get it to jump to the 32 ring. This was essentially like spending 400 bones to get 9 gears again. So I figured I underestimated and would go safe with a mtb rear derailleur. I got a Shimano Deore XT 10 speed (RD-M780 GS). I cannot get it to shift right. I can tune it to shift through 8 gears on either end of the cassette, but all 10 is out of the question.

Is the indexing messed up on the shifters? I bought a new cable to make extra sure. Same problem. Any ideas?
This is going to come off as harsh, sorry for that.

I don't know why you're out of ideas because in the postings above, before you even started buying stuff, it was clearly pointed out that the 105 RD does not have stated capacity for the cassette you were going to use (32t) and therefore it was suggested that you go with a Deore MTB RD, whichever level you needed. You took your chances with the 105 and it didn't work, not enough cassette capacity (which is independent of and a differnt spec than chain wrap capacity).

You were also advised that if you wanted to go with a Deore MTB RD, you should not use a 10 speed as the actuation ratio was not compatable with road shifters, that you need an 8 or 9 speed (also 7 I believe) MTB RD. Unfortunately you missed that or forgot it, and went with the 10 speed MTB RD, and as expected, it didn't work. These things were mentioned in the thread before you made your purchases. Sorry to be harsh, but you got good and accurate advice to the specific question you asked... but didn't follow it.... twice.

All you have to do is cut your losses and get a Deore 8 or 9 speed RD. It should work fine. You can get them very cheap at the lower levels and they work find. Sell the other stuff on ebay.

Last edited by Camilo; 08-16-12 at 04:01 PM.
Camilo is offline  
Old 08-17-12, 05:04 AM
  #17  
aknoch
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks all.

@Camilo appreciate you pointing out my deficiencies. Great for a new user!
aknoch is offline  
Old 08-17-12, 05:16 AM
  #18  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,456

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1473 Post(s)
Liked 688 Times in 486 Posts
If you want a cool and unique derailleur, you could disassemble the lower pivot on the 105 derailleur and the one you're yet to purchase, and try putting the short road cage on the Deore. IMO there's a good chance it'll fit.

Then you can tell yourself there's some kind of point to your derailleur collection

Also, bonus points for the thick skin.
Kimmo is offline  
Old 08-21-12, 02:29 PM
  #19  
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,682
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 657 Post(s)
Liked 540 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by aknoch View Post
Thanks all.

@Camilo appreciate you pointing out my deficiencies. Great for a new user!
Glad I could be of help. The advice given to questions here is almost always spot on and good to consider, if not follow, before making purchases.

Last edited by Camilo; 08-21-12 at 02:43 PM.
Camilo is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
tarwheel
Bicycle Mechanics
6
05-01-16 10:41 PM
melcooke
Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational)
6
06-17-13 02:19 PM
bacchant
Bicycle Mechanics
4
05-22-13 04:56 PM
Ozan Guner
Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational)
16
04-07-13 02:18 PM
m2tiguy
Bicycle Mechanics
11
09-04-12 04:29 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.