I think that frame materials are difficult to discuss intelligently on a board like this because the topic reaches out in too many directions.

First of all, you don't ride on Cro-Moly or Hi-Ten steel. What you ride on is a bicycle frame that has been made from those materials. A designer is likely to start at what he wants his finished product to be and work backward to the raw material. Gary Bontrager's mantra is "Strong, light, cheap. Pick any two."

Different metals have differing tensile strength. If you take a rod of metal with a 1 sq/in section, tensile strength is the amount of hanging weight it will support before breaking. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but steel compares pretty good with other materials. All steel alloys won't be the same. Cro-Moly will be stronger than Hi-Ten and way stronger than aluminum.

You can still make a good frame with Hi-Ten, you just have to use more of it. That's obviously going to make it weigh more.

If you are making a frame from a material, like aluminum, that you have to use a lot of to get the tensile strength that you need. You can cheat a little by playing with tubeing sizes. A big tube, if everything else is equal, will be harder to bend than a little tube. Since you have to use more aluminum, you can draw the amount of material that you have into a bigger section tube. The limit is determined by how thinly you can draw the tubeing walls without making them too subject to physical damage (called beer canning). Steel frames that are alloyed with exotic materials (niobium and vanadium) have tubeing wall thicknesses on the verge of beer canning.

So far as joining methods go, just let me say that the material used will dictate the joining method. The companies that draw the more exotic bicycle tube sets will specify how they have to be joined and sometimes require the frame builder to submit qualifying samples before they will sell them tubeing. Several years ago Santana, a company which specializes in tandems, made a run of Nivacrom steel framed mountain bikes. More recently, they produced a run of very light Scandium aluminum road bikes. Those projects were undertaken so that Santana could gain experience working with those exotic materials before having a special run of tandem tube sets produced.

Maybe that depends on the definition of 'good'. But I have never seen one.. There probably isn't $2 saved in using hi-ten over basic cromo and then there is the stigma associated with it in the marketpalce. Back in the mid 90s a number of entry level road bikes from some of the bigger makers were made with Hi-ten or generic cromo with hi-ten stays. Best that was ever said about them was 'ok for the money'. And that was probably being charitable.

Uhhh.. your confusing Gary Fisher and Keith Bontrager. It was Keith Bontrager who's mantra was " Light, Cheap, Strong, Pick any two."

Its strange how true those words are today. Not just in cycling, but in many other things as well.

Uh, noo. In my fabrication shop we order large quantities of tubing. Even though it is much larger and heavier it is still the same scale factor. Cromoly of any alloy is a considerable bit more expensive than the corresponding lesser alloy.

You sound like a Republican. If I had the money, I'd probably own something other than a Saturn sedan. But you know what? My Saturn is a pretty OK car for the money and I think that's a good thing. In years past, I rode some pretty marginal bikes (I wish that my first tandem had a Hi-Ten frame) but they were the best that I could afford at the time and I was on the road having fun. What's "not good" about that?

Road biking can be a pretty unforgiving sport. If your bike's not good enough, people skoff. If your bike is too good for the speed that you are able to ride, people skoff. Wrong clothes, people skoff. If you completely match your jersey, shorts, helmet and bike, people skoff. You'll never satisfy the skoffers so you might as well satisfy yourself. The nice thing about my crummy bike era was that I learned to ignore the skoffers.

Amen. Ride what you like, how you like. 'Nuff Said.

:beer:
There was an old song to that effect, wasn't there?

Yup, Bob Dylan did one but I never could figure out exactly what he was saying. I think that he gets more things to rhyme that way.

"But I would not feel so all alone. Everybody must get skoned."

What song is this?

I was thinking Garden Party, but I cant think who it was.
"I learned my lesson well. Seeyou can't please everyone, so ya got to please youself."

FWIW,
Rick Nelson

No it's there for looks. My wife actually rides on my shoulders. We find it much more enjoyable that way, although weight distribution suffers a bit.

Good. You confirmed my thoughts.

Why are you thinking about my wife?

I mean my thoughts about the second seat being only there for looks.... please don't hurt me! :eek:

That's her seat. She just got a suspension post to smooth out the little bumps. The Shimano clipless pedals are there so I don't lose her through the rough stuff. Yes, my wife is a very pretty Aussie Princess, but she also loves to take our tandem into the bush and to the beach. I'm a lucky man.

I started out with a Sears Free Spirit 10 speed,so I suppose that was good. But now I know about crap. I have the money and still drive a a crappy 93 ford pickup.

That explains your underlying anger. The forum is supposed to be fun, so try not to take yourself so seriously. My first bike with gears was a 1976 Schwinn Traveler 10 speed. I kept it until the late 1980's.

Is this Dr. Phil speaking? Or his puppet?

Dr. Phil has a puppet? Cool! I never would have guessed. Is he like Grover from Sesame Street?

I knew there was something I liked about you. The Saturn is actually my wife's car. I drive a '93 Ranger pick up.

'92 S-10. It gets the job done.

Is this a truck forum? :D

I hear trucks are often made of Hi-Ten :D

Imagine what one would wiegh made of Reynolds 857?