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Spoke hole leeway

Old 05-27-12, 08:26 PM
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Binxsy
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Spoke hole leeway

I am building up a front wheel, trying to make it as tough as possible. Weight isnt to much of a concern really. Anyways I picked up a deep v rim 48 h and a high flange surly new hub. The spoke holes are 2.4mm and I was looking at using dt swiss alpine iii but they require at least 2.5mm hole. Is that .1 to much for the spoke bend to fit around or can i squeeze them in?
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Old 05-27-12, 09:21 PM
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"The spoke holes are 2.4mm ... they require at least 2.5mm hole." You might be able to squeeze them in but I'd guess that there is a sound reason the manufacturer gives a minimum hole diameter. Squeezing them in might induce unforseen stresses in the spokes or hub. Your 48 spoke wheel might not be so tough anymore if there was a catastrophic failure due to stresses things weren't designed for.
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Old 05-28-12, 01:07 AM
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oh well...
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Old 05-28-12, 07:11 AM
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Is there any need for the extra strength of the Alpine III spokes on a 48H front wheel? Standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 double butted spokes will be way more than strong enough without the flange hole mismatch.
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Old 05-28-12, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Is there any need for the extra strength of the Alpine III spokes on a 48H front wheel?
It's been debated whether the 2.3 mm elbow really brought any extra strength or not. Taking a thicker material, and bending it at the same radius means more stretch at the outside face of the bend, and more compression on the inside face of the bend. More reason for fracture lines to start establishing themselves.

The time where the odds are highest that a 2.3 mm elbow will actually be an improvement is when it improves the fit at the hub flange.
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Old 05-28-12, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Is there any need for the extra strength of the Alpine III spokes on a 48H front wheel? Standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 double butted spokes will be way more than strong enough without the flange hole mismatch.
Yeah, I guarantee I will crash into something and the front wheel will take most of the blow..

Oh well I will just do a radial lace, on another note is there a web or program based application for generating lacing patterns?
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Old 05-28-12, 10:15 AM
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Drill out the flange holes. .05mm per side of the hole shouldn't significantly weaken the flanges. Of course, it depends on the hub. Now, if the hub is anodized black, I would be hesitant, but only for cosmetic reasons. 0.05mm is 0.0019 inches. The hub won't even notice that material is missing.
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Old 05-28-12, 12:15 PM
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According to https://www.dtswiss.com/getdoc/71f384...Datasheet.aspx

Diameter of threads is 2.3mm and diameter of elbow end is 2.34mm.

So you are good to go as-is...whether you use Alpine III's or generic 13/14g spokes.

Only concern is the elbow size of 7.8mm....but even then not a deal killer.

2.34mm of stainless steel for a non-electric / non-motor wheels is a lot of beef.

=8-)
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Old 05-28-12, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Binxsy View Post
Yeah, I guarantee I will crash into something and the front wheel will take most of the blow.....
Of course there is another approach you might consider......learn not to run into things.
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Old 05-28-12, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by krome View Post
Drill out the flange holes. .05mm per side of the hole shouldn't significantly weaken the flanges. Of course, it depends on the hub. Now, if the hub is anodized black, I would be hesitant, but only for cosmetic reasons. 0.05mm is 0.0019 inches. The hub won't even notice that material is missing.

THe hub I have is black so yeah not going to mess with it.

Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Of course there is another approach you might consider......learn not to run into things.
Polo, after a 5 hour day of it one of my wheels will be slightly out of wack. Though I am sort of anal about it, as in I notice it, others might and just blow it off..
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Old 05-28-12, 01:31 PM
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A few points.

The spoke hole size has to be a bit bigger than the spoke at the elbow to allow the bend to clear as the spoke is inserted. I believe the OD of your spoke is nearer to 2.3 than 2.4 so there's no risk of flange stress from an oversize spoke, though you may have to "pop" the bend through.

As to strength. The shear strenght of steels is roughly 80% of the tensile, which is why butted spokes were invented in the first place. Operating on the theory of a chain being only as strong as it's weakest link, you need roughly 25% more material in the elbow as elsewhere in the spoke. A similar issue happens at the thread, which is why most spokes are butted at both ends.

There's no issue, of stress damage during the forming process. Steel is very ductile, and spoke makers know how to form ends without weakening.

So yes, you probably can use the heavier spokes if you want. The real question is whether you should.

It's very easy to have too much spoke for the rim, resulting in wheels that though seeming stronger in theory, are actually weaker in practice. I occasionally use 13/14g spokes on the right rear for very heavy riders, and tandems, but that's with only 32H spokes. Adding 33% more spoke by going to 48h, is comparable to using heavier spokes, but there's no way I'd ever consider doing both.
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Old 05-28-12, 01:49 PM
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Yeah I am starting to agree with you, the more I read from other sources and here the more I am fine with the DT swiss Champions I got. Also I would think that using the alpines would make the rim much more rigid, I believe some flex might be a good thing.

This will be the second wheel I have built, the first one I built came out properly and has been serving me well. The fundamentals all make sense to me, in fact building it came rather quickly to me.

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Old 05-29-12, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Binxsy View Post
..I would think that using the alpines would make the rim much more rigid...
No.

For rigidity, you want more cross section - ie thicker spokes. But that'd have to be a spoke that's thicker all the way. Merely being thicker at the elbow won't do squat for rigidity.
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