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Radial vs 1 cross lacing

Old 06-06-12, 12:59 PM
  #26  
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Any member in tension is stronger if it's shorter, no? Less metal to fail.

Certainly less elastic.
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Old 06-06-12, 01:12 PM
  #27  
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A 14g wire has a rating...

Usually ratings are in some measure along the line of:

applied force / per distance

If a 14g wire has a rating of let's say 560 lbs / foot...

That rating applies whether the 14g wire is 300mm long or 50mm long. That rating applies whether it is positioned at 45 degrees to the rim or 90 degrees to the rim.

=8-)
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Old 06-06-12, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
A 14g wire has a rating...

Usually ratings are in some measure along the line of:

applied force / per distance

If a 14g wire has a rating of let's say 560 lbs / foot...

That rating applies whether the 14g wire is 300mm long or 50mm long. That rating applies whether it is positioned at 45 degrees to the rim or 90 degrees to the rim.

=8-)
I suspect same apples to the metal in the hub. If the spoke leaves at whatever different degree of angle.. the metal has the same breaking strength.
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Old 06-06-12, 03:11 PM
  #29  
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Does anyone have a picture of a 1x wheel? Is it just crossed pairs of spokes, crossing right at the flange? I can't wrap my head around it.
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Old 06-06-12, 04:00 PM
  #30  
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1X

A spoke crosses another spoke only ONCE before hitting the rim. Major difference versus 2x and 3x is that 99% of the time you won't interlace - i.e., they won't touch or twist around another spoke. They'll simply run straight to the rim flared out on their own. As part of the truing and tensioning process you'll be pressing the elbow shanks pretty hard to get them to flatten out and hug the hub flange.

=8-)
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Old 06-06-12, 07:22 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
1X

A spoke crosses another spoke only ONCE before hitting the rim. Major difference versus 2x and 3x is that 99% of the time you won't interlace - i.e., they won't touch or twist around another spoke. They'll simply run straight to the rim flared out on their own. As part of the truing and tensioning process you'll be pressing the elbow shanks pretty hard to get them to flatten out and hug the hub flange.

=8-)
So, to answer my question... Yes?

If they don't interlace, what's the point other than to fit longer spokes in a pinch?
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Old 06-06-12, 08:02 PM
  #32  
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For all practical purposes radial and 1x builds are almost identical. Whatever concerns you might have about building radial apply just as well to 1x. The crosses in a 1x build are almost always too close to the flange to allow interlacing over/under. That mean a straight run flange to rim, eliminating the resiliency that interlacing provides.

BTW- using 48 spokes it's very easy to have too much spoke for the rim and flange (especially with 2mm spokes), so any concerns about radial lacing count double.

In your shoes, I'd build 3x using light spokes like 14/17g, or forgo the 48h nonsense in the first place. IMO 48h is unnecessary overkill offering little or no added benefit. I've sent loaded tandems NY to California with zero issues, using 36h 14/16g builds and relative light (by today's standards) rims.
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Old 06-07-12, 02:45 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
.. IMO 48h is unnecessary overkill offering little or no added benefit. I've sent loaded tandems NY to California with zero issues, using 36h 14/16g builds and relative light (by today's standards) rims.
But this was for a polo bike, and the OP was worried about sudden impacts, not long-haul endurance.
With a stiff rim, a 48H wheel, heads out, heavy gauge spokes, should put up a helluva fight before it turns taco.
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Old 06-07-12, 04:48 AM
  #34  
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No question about it.. recall every 48 hole rim ever made. Overkill is the charge.. just wayyyy over the top. NO one needs one.

OBVIOUSLY.. everyone weighs the same.. rides the same nice smooooth roads... ALWAYS misses the potholes.. NEVER rides a heavy load.

I ask.. suggest.. what does that extra 12 spokes weigh? Maybe what.. 2-3 ounces. About the sweat one evaporates in a few miles. Find me another 2-3 ounces of added weigh to the bike that accomplishes more.....

Find me someone carping about the durability of a 48H 4 cross on a rear.

48's require more time to build and few rear 48 hubs of quality to choose from. Some bias vs 48's sources from this.

Do most of us need one.. I think not. But for a couple ounces of added steel.. it's a no brain-er if you actually using the bike under load and require maximum durability.
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Old 06-07-12, 05:59 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by SortaGrey View Post
I suspect same apples to the metal in the hub. If the spoke leaves at whatever different degree of angle.. the metal has the same breaking strength.
BUT - if the spoke leaves the hub at a tangent there is more material to pull against.
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Old 06-07-12, 06:08 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by dabac View Post
But this was for a polo bike, and the OP was worried about sudden impacts, not long-haul endurance.
With a stiff rim, a 48H wheel, heads out, heavy gauge spokes, should put up a helluva fight before it turns taco.
The issue is different from what you typically see on road bikes. It's the amount of material in the hub flange and rim. 48 holes means the holes are spaced more closely together. More hole and less material = weaker hub flange. Lace it radially and you are pulling against a weaker flange in the direction where it's weakest. A 36 spoke wheel might actually be stronger.
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Old 06-07-12, 06:31 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
BUT - if the spoke leaves the hub at a tangent there is more material to pull against.
How... does that chg the fatigue limit of the metal?

36 H stronger than a 48? Not so. Ask those that know.
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Old 06-07-12, 06:54 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by SortaGrey View Post
How... does that chg the fatigue limit of the metal?

36 H stronger than a 48? Not so. Ask those that know.
Direction matters. Prop up a 2 X 4 across a pair of saw horses and place a weight in the center. Notice how the 2 X 4 bends more if you lay it flat side down than if you set it on edge. What has changed? It's the same 2 X 4 but it's stronger in one direction than the other.

I will agree with you that 48 spokes will be stronger than 36 spokes but I'm not talking about spokes breaking, I'm talking about the hub flange. If everything else is equal, a hub flange with 48 holes in it will always be weaker than a flange that has only 36 holes drilled in it.
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Old 06-07-12, 08:36 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
The issue is different from what you typically see on road bikes. It's the amount of material in the hub flange and rim. 48 holes means the holes are spaced more closely together. More hole and less material = weaker hub flange. Lace it radially and you are pulling against a weaker flange in the direction where it's weakest. A 36 spoke wheel might actually be stronger.
Well, sure. There'll always be a weakest link. As soon as you reinforce one link in the chain, another will take over the role as the weakest.

Not knowing the specifics of his hub, we can't tell which it's likely to be.
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Old 06-07-12, 08:51 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by dabac View Post
But this was for a polo bike, and the OP was worried about sudden impacts, not long-haul endurance.
With a stiff rim, a 48H wheel, heads out, heavy gauge spokes, should put up a helluva fight before it turns taco.
If the goal is maximizing lateral rigidity, then I agree that 48h might make sense. However there's very little difference between 1x an radial since neither will be interlaced, and the spoke length almost the same.

One thing the OP should consider is keeping the tension down. The rigidity of the wheel doesn't rise with greater tension, it's strictly a function of the amount of steel (gauge and number of spokes), however stress on the hub is a function of tension. By keeping tension somewhat lower he can gain the mechanical properties he's looking for without destroying the hub flange.
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Old 06-07-12, 01:03 PM
  #41  
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Does anybody here truly think that a 48 spoke front wheel won't be extremely stiff no matter which lacing pattern is used? Being that wheel stiffness is entirely dependent on the combination of flange offset (this includes lacing patterns) and cross-sectional area of the spokes...the 48 spoke wheel is already going to be twice as stiff as the 24 spoke wheels that many here on the forum use. My 24 spokes laced 2x front wheel is more than stiff enough.

It seems like arguing about stiffness based on lacing patterns of a 48 spoke front wheel is somewhat silly...no disrespect intended.

-Jeremy
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Old 06-07-12, 09:13 PM
  #42  
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Is there a certain way to go about lacing up radial? Is it one side then the same spoke on the opposite side? Or? every other spoke on the same side then the same on the other?
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Old 06-07-12, 09:32 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Binxsy View Post
Is there a certain way to go about lacing up radial? Is it one side then the same spoke on the opposite side? Or? every other spoke on the same side then the same on the other?
If you look across the hub, you'll see that the holes are in sequence alternating between the flanges, as in 1Left flange, 2Right, 3L, 4R.....47L, 48R, 1L. So it's straightforward, the spokes are in the same R/L sequence in both the rim and hub. It's almost (but not quite) impossible to get confused lacing radial spokes.

The truly OCD builders won't have any issues getting the valve hole lined up to the label. The spoke to the right of the hole, goes to the hole to the right of the label.

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Old 06-08-12, 06:09 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
If you look across the hub, you'll see that the holes are in sequence alternating between the flanges. It's almost (but not quite) impossible to get confused lacing radial spokes.
A trick that I've found helpful is to simply poke a spoke through one hub flange parallel to the axle. That helps me determine if a hole is one ahead or one behind a spoke on the other flange. A 48 hole hub is going to be less obvious than a 32 hole hub.
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Old 06-11-12, 05:26 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
A trick that I've found helpful is to simply poke a spoke through one hub flange parallel to the axle. That helps me determine if a hole is one ahead or one behind a spoke on the other flange. A 48 hole hub is going to be less obvious than a 32 hole hub.
Yeah I laced it one hole over, it looked right but at the same time slightly off. Oh well its all good now, thanks for the help!
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Old 06-11-12, 07:22 PM
  #46  
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When I read this thread, I saw that many of you have ideas/theories that are correct. Yep... most of you are correct.

Radial can be stiffer. 36 hole hubs are stronger at the flange given the same metal thickness and composition. 3cross is more durable than radial under most conditions.

But you guys must remember one thing:
A bicycle wheel is a system of parts, and those parts each have a specific job. If you go to the extremes on any one part, then you WILL give up something in another aspect. In most cases, a 32 or 36 hole wheel laced 3x with reasonably guaged spokes will be the most efficient system of parts that delivers durability and versatility. Lace the wheel radially to get extreme stiffness, and you will have a weaker wheel at the hub. Lace the wheel with a high spoke count, and you'll get a wheel that has weaker hubs and rims... more holes equals less strength (in general).

Now I'm not saying that you should never build a wheel for a specific purpose... but realize that you never get anything for free. You must give up something to get something else.
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Old 06-11-12, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SortaGrey View Post
No question about it.. recall every 48 hole rim ever made. Overkill is the charge.. just wayyyy over the top. NO one needs one.

OBVIOUSLY.. everyone weighs the same.. rides the same nice smooooth roads... ALWAYS misses the potholes.. NEVER rides a heavy load.

I ask.. suggest.. what does that extra 12 spokes weigh? Maybe what.. 2-3 ounces. About the sweat one evaporates in a few miles. Find me another 2-3 ounces of added weigh to the bike that accomplishes more.....

Find me someone carping about the durability of a 48H 4 cross on a rear.

48's require more time to build and few rear 48 hubs of quality to choose from. Some bias vs 48's sources from this.

Do most of us need one.. I think not. But for a couple ounces of added steel.. it's a no brain-er if you actually using the bike under load and require maximum durability.
You would like these...

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Old 06-11-12, 11:56 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Hydrated View Post
realize that you never get anything for free. You must give up something to get something else.
Almost never. There's the occasional free lunch... for instance, there's no inherent downside to an off-centre rim that I can make out, and plenty of advantage.
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Old 06-12-12, 05:51 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
You would like these...

Yes.. those are nice.

Yet from the land of 48 I'm moving to 24... . 26" MTB.. new 16-8 triplet is next up.

Why? Because.

Something new to work with keeps one's tiny drop of grey matter working.. to some degree. One gets the same number of DS spokes as the 32 rear the many claim is so strong. And yes.. I'm finding same.. albeit with my own hand built/tuned wheels... 32 does well. Interesting is some respects.. and learning something too.

Then.. eliminating the heads inside on the NDS [via the triplet] means most of the spoke breakage normally occurring is not present. Those 8 will get radial.. spokes all Sapim double butted.. 13/14's.

I built a 24H 26" front recently.. yet to ride.. but it's stiff.. and then some. 110 kgf tension.. leaning into the rim set on side on the bench.. you'd need the fat lady down the street sitting on it to move it I think. Laced 1x.. and inter-laced... why not. Not the norm.. which never stopped me.

Ballpark prelim figures show around 135 kfg for NDS.. 110 DS for this new rear.. Velocity rim. Yes.. the NDS will come out higher tension that the DS with the 135 MTB rear spacing. Yes I could jimmy the rear spacing to get equal rear side to side tension.... but then changing out rear wheels means doing same to the other.

Will a 24H rear 26" stand up to 240 lbs.... laced triplet? I mean to find out...............
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Old 06-12-12, 11:28 AM
  #50  
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back in the 80's only the bravest riders would even consider doing radial spoking for road wheels. It was pretty much just the domain of custom show bikes and TT bikes but was considered too dangerous for use on the road by "regular" cyclists. Now you see many bikes on bikeshop showrooms with radial spoking, being sold to the general public. with even much less spokes that what was used in the 80's What really changed that made radial spoking so common on modern bikes now Did materials get stronger. Did spoke and hub design change so much as to not worry about asploding radial spoked wheels?.....or were we way to worried about radial spoking back then, even though radial spoked wheels were actually strong enough to use on the road?
Heck, I still remember when my LBS was trying to convince me not to go with 32 spoked wheels on my bike back in the 80's because they thought anything with below 36 spokes will asplode on the first small bump or divot I encountered on the road.

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