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Horizontal Drop - rear wheel forward slippage

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Horizontal Drop - rear wheel forward slippage

Old 06-29-12, 10:28 AM
  #26  
haaseg
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The QR Skewer I'm using is actually came with the wheelset, and they had over 2500 together on another bike, so I'm fairly confident they work as a pair.

I didn't look at the drops closely last night because I don't have very good lighting. I also do not have tools which which I could accurately determine if they are parallel. They "look" parallel.

On inspection, I noticed a little nastiness on the inside of the drive-side drop-out. You can see where the serrated part of the locknut actually gouged the metal as it pulled forward. I can't imagine the type of force that would be required to cause that much damage. In all the incidents where the wheel has slipped, I don't recall hitting anything and although I may be a bit of a masher, I doubt I could have hammered on the pedals that hard.



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Old 06-29-12, 11:07 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
I didn't make a superiority statement onespeedbiker - I simply noted that both will work and directed the attention to what is really important with QR's:

The ability to "bite".

(Steel serrated facings and steel serrated washers are what get it done.)

Try to read a little more slowly please...

=8-)
Perhaps I misunderstood
Exposed and non-exposed skewers will work either way...
Seems to me you are saying the two work equally well with either having "steel serrated facing ; my belief is that's not the case, the exterior QR, even with steel serrated facing, is inferior and will slip. Just my 2, not trying to start pi$$ing contest.
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Old 06-29-12, 11:19 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
1. at what angle is the QR-lever at when you start feeling resistance as you flip it closed?
I start to feel resistance when it is sticking straight out. My usual MO is to close it, tighten the nut until it starts to bite, then open the QR and give the nut another half turn before closing it again. If I go a full turn, I usually cannot get the QR to close all the way. Or I feel like I am forcing it way too much and need to back off.

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
2. what kind of wrench are you using to tighten the cassette lockring? To what torque are you tightening it?
Normal crescent wrench on a the Park lockring tool (I think it's the PR-5?). I don't own a torgue wrench. You can see in the pictures I posted earlier where the lockriing had come off while riding and scraped against the inside of the dropout.
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Old 06-29-12, 12:06 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
Perhaps I misunderstood Seems to me you are saying the two work equally well with either having "steel serrated facing ; my belief is that's not the case, the exterior QR, even with steel serrated facing, is inferior and will slip. Just my 2, not trying to start pi$$ing contest.
Misunderstood is exactly what you did - because you assumed an equality in a statement where none was stated beyond the "functional".

Pissing contests get started often in three ways here on BikeForums:

1. People read something, jump on what ain't there, other person fires right back.
2. People make "never" statements where anyone with half a brain knows should not be made. Everyone else calls 'em on it.
3. Someone starts a new religion...try's to sell a new Kool-Aid...implying that everyone else should follow along. Everyone else points to a church on Mt. Everest and tells 'em to take a hike.

=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
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Old 06-29-12, 12:28 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by haaseg View Post
The QR Skewer I'm using is actually came with the wheelset, and they had over 2500 together on another bike, so I'm fairly confident they work as a pair.

I didn't look at the drops closely last night because I don't have very good lighting. I also do not have tools which which I could accurately determine if they are parallel. They "look" parallel.

On inspection, I noticed a little nastiness on the inside of the drive-side drop-out. You can see where the serrated part of the locknut actually gouged the metal as it pulled forward. I can't imagine the type of force that would be required to cause that much damage. In all the incidents where the wheel has slipped, I don't recall hitting anything and although I may be a bit of a masher, I doubt I could have hammered on the pedals that hard.



The top and bottom of the right dropout are parallel - that is what I was referring to, although it's conceivable that you could have a problem if the dropout faces were badly out of parallel so that they are facing outward as you look toward the front of the bike.

Looking at the dropout face I'm thinking you may have a cyclical situation. There may have been an incident of some sort that damaged the dropout face enough to cause some slippage. Then each incident since then has added to the problem. Once again I will point out that there are limitations to what can be determine remotely - I can't tell from a photo how deep the damage is, nor can I check things in person. Nowhere do I see that you have taken this into a shop to have it checked. Although many of us here are quite experienced sometimes there's no substitute for hands-on.
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Old 06-29-12, 01:26 PM
  #31  
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I'm looking at the second photo...

Best as I can tell, I see a hint that the rear right dropout in the vertical plane is bent inward toward the bicycle center line. The rear left dropout appears in the horizontal plane to have a touch inward bend as well...following the line of the chainstay a little.

Judging from the first photo, something happened back there in the past - lower end chain drop? Wheel slipped and settled as far forward as the point where the dropout is brazed to the stays? The adjuster angle suggests that in the past the dropout axle slot at one point was bent in or spread out and someone did a quick fix.

1. Make sure you have properly fitting skewers that have steel serrated facing for the end nut and the cam side.
2. Take bike to an LBS, have the rear dropout alignment checked. 5 minute job - T-handle shaped tools are used.
3. Have the rear wheel dish checked, install wheel, center between stays and secure. Then have LBS align the derailleur hanger against that dished and installed wheel. 5-10 minute job - swing arm type tool.

Make sure you follow everyone's instructions about using QRs.

1. Should hurt a tad when closing - that's tight.
2. QRs are not a PERMANENT affixing. Check before every ride.

=8-)
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 06-29-12, 02:21 PM
  #32  
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You could also consider completely removing the adjusters in order to have the axle ends sit on an undamaged portion of the dropout. they are only there to help in quickly centering the wheel when installing.
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Old 06-29-12, 03:22 PM
  #33  
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The 1st photo actually doesn't snow much damage, it's the paint that's scraped off. The metal underneath is barely scratched. The optical illusion of having the camera-lens close to the dropout, but not perpendicular to the face makes it appear that the tip of the dropout is pinched in. But it's really not, the slot is close to parallel and as long as the wheel slides in, it's good.

The 2nd photo does appear to show that the dropouts may not be aligned parallel to each other from side-to-side. Without going to the shop and using the dropout-alignment tools, you can make a quick measurement to verify:


http://sheldonbrown.com/images/measure-spacing.jpg
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

Take 4 measurements:

1. width at top of axle-slot in dropout, at the front
2. width at top of axle-slot, at the rear before the curve
3. width at bottom of axle-slot, at the front
4. width at bottom of axle-slot, at the rear before the curve

The variations in these measurements will tell you how square the dropouts are to each other.

To determine squareness or parallelogram alignment with BB, measure distance from centre of axle when mounted to centre of BB-spindle bolt on each side. Also do the "string test" and verify that the rear-triangle is in-plane with the seat-tube and head-tube. Although I prefer to clamp the string (with the wheel mounted) to the outer-dropout face with the QR. The string is clamped by the QR directly above centreline of the axle on each side


http://sheldonbrown.com/images/string-test.jpg
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
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Old 06-29-12, 03:38 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Pissing contests get started often in three ways here on BikeForums:

1. People read something, jump on what ain't there, other person fires right back.
2. People make "never" statements where anyone with half a brain knows should not be made. Everyone else calls 'em on it.
3. Someone starts a new religion...try's to sell a new Kool-Aid...implying that everyone else should follow along. Everyone else points to a church on Mt. Everest and tells 'em to take a hike.

=8-)
4. Spelling and grammar Nazis appear out of nowhere.
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Old 06-29-12, 04:35 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
The 1st photo actually doesn't snow much damage, it's the paint that's scraped off. The metal underneath is barely scratched. The optical illusion of having the camera-lens close to the dropout, but not perpendicular to the face makes it appear that the tip of the dropout is pinched in. But it's really not, the slot is close to parallel and as long as the wheel slides in, it's good.

The 2nd photo does appear to show that the dropouts may not be aligned parallel to each other from side-to-side. Without going to the shop and using the dropout-alignment tools, you can make a quick measurement to verify:
This is contradictory. You are saying that due to the camera angle, you cannot tell how bad the damage in the first picture is - it looks like it's just paint. But then, even given the camera being slightly off-center in the second picture, you say the dropouts look like they may not be aligned parallel? I am not really trying to criticize this assessment though - I think it underscores what others have said - this bike needs to go to the LBS.

I measured between the drop in 6 spots - front, middle, and back x top and bottom. All 6 measurements were 127mm.

Re: comment about the adjuster angle - that adjuster is bent. I cannot make the adjustment from the outside - only using a flat-head from the inside (just discovered this). I tried to bend it back by hand, and although it's not straight, it's straighter. So I can't rule out that got bent during shipment or even leaning the bike up against something.

Thanks for the replies.
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Old 06-29-12, 06:25 PM
  #36  
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Been there. I try to make sure both QR and hub nut have seriously serrated edges.
Been there +2, and there has already been some great advice provided to you. I just wanted to add that I too had this problem on a 90's steel racing frame and I just about went insane with my attempts to keep the wheel in place.

An almost guaranteed way to fix this is to replace the QR with a nutted axle. Yes, the enclosed cam, steel acorn nut QR skewers should hold the wheel in place -- but often the hub lock nuts don't have enough "bite" and this is where the slippage will often come from. The nutted axle provides such a solid connection that it will often override this lack of bite in the other nuts against the drop out.

Actually, if you do a search you'll likely run into my posts where I had this problem. I think that NY bike guy suggested that the nutted axle may work well. And it did.

You could also try star washers for grip, but I've not had good luck with them to be honest. Your best bet is to either replace the wheel lock nuts with more serrated ones (and keep trying the QR), or swap to a nutted axle. That's my opinion anyway -- don't sue, to each the their own, etc.

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Old 06-30-12, 05:15 AM
  #37  
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Been there. I try to make sure both QR and hub nut have seriously serrated edges.
Yup, me too. It's actually more important to have the hub lock-nut be very serrated with good grip. That's because due to the large amount of clearance between the axle's inner hole and QR skewer, the hub would actually slip before the QR.

I've used these axle lock-nuts from my track-bike on several QR wheels people have brought me with slipping issues:

Problem solved.
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Old 06-30-12, 06:27 AM
  #38  
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It looks to me like the cassette lock ring has been rubbing the inside of the dropout. I would look at hub spacing as the possible cause of the problem.
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Old 06-30-12, 09:53 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by haaseg View Post
The frame is spaced for 126mm but I have a modern 130mm wheel in there - it has not been cold set
Just going off the OP (I haven't bothered to read the thread), that's the first thing I'd look at; making the dropouts parallel. And likely the knurling on your locknut and/or QR nut is somewhat buggered.
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