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Horizontal Drop - rear wheel forward slippage

Old 06-28-12, 10:19 AM
  #1  
haaseg
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Horizontal Drop - rear wheel forward slippage

I have an older bike, which has horizontal drops. The wheel comes off by moving it forward, and I have the little screw things in place from keeping the wheel from sliding too far back. But occasionally I am having an issue where the drive side of the wheel slips forward, causing the non-drive side of the tire to rub the chainstay. It seems like I have the skewer impossibly tight but it still happens. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to tell if this is gradual slippage or sudden slippage. I keep an eye on it from time-to-time and it doesn't move so I forget and then eventually I notice I'm dragging a bit and see it.

There are a couple of oddities that may be clues or red herrings:
  • The frame is spaced for 126mm but I have a modern 130mm wheel in there - it has not been cold set
  • There is another issue where the cassette lockring loosens itself - even if I use a wrench rather than hand-tighten the cassette. The two issues do NOT occur at the same time
  • The frame was designed for 27" wheels and I have 700c wheels on there now.
  • The frame is Reynolds 531 - the bike is a 1983 Trek 720

I thought that the issue may be related to the 27" to 700c change, but I didn't see any mention of slippage in any of the conversion threads.

I was thinking it could possibly be an alignment issue - because I am springing the frame to get the wheel in, maybe it's occurring unevenly.

I was also thinking it could be chain length issue, but the bike has smaller gears than it previously did and a long-cage rear derailleur. And actually I replaced the original derailleur with a new one and the issue still persists.

Last edited by haaseg; 06-29-12 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 06-28-12, 10:31 AM
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http://sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

Do you have enclosed or exposed type skewers? How is the serrated portion of the acorn nut?

I'm inclined to think this is more of a skewer issue than conversion issue. I converted my 1984 Trek 520 from 126mm/27" wheels to 130mm/700c wheels and I've never had a slippage problem. I'm running tiagra hubs in front and back.
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Old 06-28-12, 10:32 AM
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Are the two springs at either end of the quick release facing the right direction? I had the same problem and it was due to one of the springs facing the wrong way and not compressing properly.

Check the make sure they're both facing point side in and are compressing all the way.
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Old 06-28-12, 10:32 AM
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Had the wheel shift thing happen a couple of times on different bikes and suggest you take a look at the drive side skewer nut. I've gotten into the habit of putting older all-metal ones in the back and sometimes I 're-groove' them (or more aggressively groove them with a Dremel cut-off wheel) to get a better bite into the dropout. The newer plastic nuts with a metal insert don;t seem to do as good a job on some frames, even when the dropouts have been realigned.

Never had a cassette lockring loosen, so can't help you there unless the little springy thing under the lockring is missing. If it's there, you should hear a sound like a zipper being pulled up when you tighten it. No zipper, no spring thingy, might be the problem. You are using the correct cassette tool, yes?
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Old 06-28-12, 10:56 AM
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Exposed cam skewers in horizontal dropouts just aren't a good combo.
Get an inclosed cam skewer - Shimano has really good ones, or you can find them on old wheels really cheap.


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Old 06-28-12, 11:14 AM
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My wheels do have Shimano skewers and look just like the image posted (except silver). They are newer R500s. I looked at the nut, and although it has a metal insert, the serrated portion looks very worn. I'm going to try and replace that and see if the issue goes away.
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Old 06-28-12, 11:15 AM
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Been there. I try to make sure both QR and hub nut have seriously serrated edges.
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Old 06-28-12, 11:16 AM
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Also worth double-checking that the axle does not extend past the outside of the dropout. This can cause that kind of slippage even with an incredibly tight skewer.
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Old 06-28-12, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by haaseg View Post
[*]The frame is spaced for 126mm but I have a modern 130mm wheel in there - it has not been cold set
Did you remove any axle spacers to make it easier to slip the 130mm wheel into the 126mm frame? If so, one of the axle ends might be protruding just a bit past the outside of the dropout.
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Old 06-28-12, 11:51 AM
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Q/R skewers have been holding wheels securely in horizontal dropouts for about 85 years, so if you are having a problem it's not due to the horizontal dropouts. The above posts indicate most of the potential problems. Trying a different q/r is a good idea.

Below are all the causes of slippage I have seen, the first two being by far the most common:
  • Q/R springs need to have the small end toward the center of the hub on both sides.
  • The axle must not extend beyond the outside of the dropout when the locknut is tight against the inside.
  • Very old q/r levers can be worn enough to not clamp well (not the issue in your case).
  • The inside surface of the right dropout may be damaged, or the dropout may have opened up from the derailleur being forced backward in an accident.
Very badly aligned rear dropouts may contribute, but I have not personally seen that, and again lots of people are riding a 126 wheel in a 130 space without problems.

Last edited by cny-bikeman; 06-28-12 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 06-28-12, 01:24 PM
  #11  
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Exposed and non-exposed skewers will work either way...

Fundamental question is: Does either or both end have steel serrated facing for "biting" into the dropouts when close. Very important for horizontal dropouts.

See cny-bikeman's list as well...

=8-)
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Old 06-28-12, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bboy314 View Post
Also worth double-checking that the axle does not extend past the outside of the dropout. This can cause that kind of slippage even with an incredibly tight skewer.
+1

This is absolutely crucial, and is often the problem when new wheels are installed on old bikes.
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Old 06-28-12, 02:22 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by haaseg View Post
I have an older bike, which has horizontal drops. The wheel comes off by moving it forward, and I have the little screw things in place from keeping the wheel from sliding too far back. But occasionally I am having an issue where the drive side of the wheel slips forward, causing the non-drive side of the tire to rub the chainstay. It seems like I have the skewer impossibly tight but it still happens. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to tell if this is gradual slippage or sudden slippage. I keep an eye on it from time-to-time and it doesn't move so I forget and then eventually I notice I'm dragging a bit and see it.

There are a couple of oddities that may be clues or red herrings:
  • The frame is spaced for 126mm but I have a modern 130mm wheel in there - it has not been cold set
  • There is another issue where the cassette lockring loosens itself - even if I use a wrench rather than hand-tighten the cassette. The two issues do occur at the same time
  • The frame was designed for 27" wheels and I have 700c wheels on there now.
  • The frame is Reynolds 531 - the bike is a 1983 Trek 720

I thought that the issue may be related to the 27" to 700c change, but I didn't see any mention of slippage in any of the conversion threads.

I was thinking it could possibly be an alignment issue - because I am springing the frame to get the wheel in, maybe it's occurring unevenly.

I was also thinking it could be chain length issue, but the bike has smaller gears than it previously did and a long-cage rear derailleur. And actually I replaced the original derailleur with a new one and the issue still persists.
You must always use a wrench and tighten the lockring hard.
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Old 06-28-12, 02:53 PM
  #14  
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This is what I use and it is very tight. http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...&id=7440277124
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Old 06-28-12, 05:05 PM
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"There is another issue where the cassette lockring loosens itself - even if I use a wrench rather than hand-tighten the cassette. The two issues do occur at the same time"

Wow, I missed that completely. If the two happen at the same time it would be sensible to assume the two are connected. I was thinking the lockring was backing off enough to prevent proper tightening of the Q/R but that does not make sense - would have to be loose when you mount the wheel.

So do I have it right - The wheel is fine, you ride for miles without a problem and without removal/installation of the wheel, then you find that the wheel is shifting and the lockring is loose. Is that correct?
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Old 06-29-12, 12:06 AM
  #16  
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Couple of updates/clarifications:

First off, there was a typo - the lockring and wheel slippage issues do NOT occur at the same time.

As stated above, this is a Shimano QR skewer from a newer set of R500s. The serrated metal on the lock nut does seem worn, which is something to look at more closely.

I checked the axle, and the ends do NOT protrude past the edge of the dropout. They extend maybe 1/2 way through on each side. I did not think to take any spaces out, I wasn't aware that this could be done. It seems to be I could remove 2mm of spacers from either side and still not protrude from the dropout.

QR springs are in the correct direction.
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Old 06-29-12, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Exposed and non-exposed skewers will work either way...

Fundamental question is: Does either or both end have steel serrated facing for "biting" into the dropouts when close. Very important for horizontal dropouts.

See cny-bikeman's list as well...

=8-)
I beg to differ. I first heard the outside cam is inferior from Sheldon Brown. I then installed a set of NoTubes ZTR on a SASS, which came with outside cam QR's with aluminum clamping surfaces; the rear wheel would slip to even look at it (the fork ends are chromed). I switched out the QR with an exposed cam Salsa, which was better, but still slipped with every medium effort. Finally used a Deore QR and the wheel did not move at all during two very hard rides (I eventually installed a chain tug (Surly Tuggnut) just to be on the safe side). Anyway, as Sheldon Brown explains
...the exposed cam is a larger diameter, (typically 16 mm vs 7 mm for an enclosed cam) so the friction is acting on a longer moment arm (the radius of the cam.) The result is that the exposed cam type provides very much less clamping force for a given amount of hand force on the lever.
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Old 06-29-12, 01:24 AM
  #18  
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On a conventional wheel, both contacts with the dropout, inner and outer face, are steel . Does the R500 have any aluminium parts in contact?
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Old 06-29-12, 01:29 AM
  #19  
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Exposed-cam QRs have about 400-600 lbs of clamping-force. Internal-cams have 1200-1400 lbs of clamping force. In addition, the steel serrated clamping faces on the internal-cam QRs make that superior clamping-force work even better. Both types of QR work perfectly well on vertical dropouts. Which has been the standard on most bikes in the past 20-years. However, when used on old bikes with horizontal dropouts, the difference will be apparent with slipping.

haaseg,

1. at what angle is the QR-lever at when you start feeling resistance as you flip it closed?
2. what kind of wrench are you using to tighten the cassette lockring? To what torque are you tightening it?

Post a photo of both. Thx

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 06-29-12 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 06-29-12, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jim hughes View Post
+1

This is absolutely crucial, and is often the problem when new wheels are installed on old bikes.
+2 There is a very good chance your axel scewer is set up for dopouts slightly thicker than the ones you have. This can usually be corrected by adding a 1mm spacer to the drive side.
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Old 06-29-12, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
+2 There is a very good chance your axel scewer is set up for dopouts slightly thicker than the ones you have. This can usually be corrected by adding a 1mm spacer to the drive side.
Check out post #16.
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Old 06-29-12, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Check out post #16.
I could be wrong, but I think zukahn1 was talking about the OLD, not really the dropout. For example, if the skewer was meant to be used on a 135 OLD and is used on a 126, the skewer nut could bottom out on the skewer, not allowing full clamping force.

Re-reading I don't think this is what he meant, but it could be a cause.
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Old 06-29-12, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by haaseg View Post
Couple of updates/clarifications:

First off, there was a typo - the lockring and wheel slippage issues do NOT occur at the same time.

As stated above, this is a Shimano QR skewer from a newer set of R500s. The serrated metal on the lock nut does seem worn, which is something to look at more closely.

I checked the axle, and the ends do NOT protrude past the edge of the dropout. They extend maybe 1/2 way through on each side. I did not think to take any spaces out, I wasn't aware that this could be done. It seems to be I could remove 2mm of spacers from either side and still not protrude from the dropout.

QR springs are in the correct direction.
Thank you for the update. Still need to know if you have checked the right dropout. The sides should be parallel and the inside face flat.
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Old 06-29-12, 07:22 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
+2 There is a very good chance your axel scewer is set up for dopouts slightly thicker than the ones you have. This can usually be corrected by adding a 1mm spacer to the drive side.
It would be helpful to use correct spelling and terminology for clarity - axle, skewer and "axle skewer" makes it unclear as to whether you are referring to the hub axle or the Q/R skewer.

It's also important to give accurate information There's no reason to add a washer to one side, because both left and right ends will protrude in such a situation. If the OLD is smaller than the dropout width one needs to add spacers to both sides. If the dropout width is fine then adding spacers just makes it harder to mount the wheel. It's better just to grind a mm off the axle ends.

Last edited by cny-bikeman; 06-29-12 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 06-29-12, 10:23 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker View Post
I beg to differ. I first heard the outside cam is inferior from Sheldon Brown. I then installed a set of NoTubes ZTR on a SASS, which came with outside cam QR's with aluminum clamping surfaces; the rear wheel would slip to even look at it (the fork ends are chromed). I switched out the QR with an exposed cam Salsa, which was better, but still slipped with every medium effort. Finally used a Deore QR and the wheel did not move at all during two very hard rides (I eventually installed a chain tug (Surly Tuggnut) just to be on the safe side). Anyway, as Sheldon Brown explains
I didn't make a superiority statement onespeedbiker - I simply noted that both will work and directed the attention to what is really important with QR's:

The ability to "bite".

(Steel serrated facings and steel serrated washers are what get it done.)

Try to read a little more slowly please...

=8-)
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