Question about a wheel the LBS built for me - should I be concerned?
08-14-12, 10:20 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit
The reason you can't afford a Phil OR a Morizumi is because you are not their market. Even the small shops are not their market...
The Phil and Morizumi by design are:
1. Multi-personality machines.
2. Multi-user machines.
Because of that they are high volume "workshop" machines. Any workshop machine that is going to function consistently and reliably has to be over constructed materials-wise to ensure that it can for the long term can survive the wear and tear that occurs from multiple users with multiple personalities who also happen to bring an occasional weird handling "quirk" to bear. When you pay our 3700.00 and 4000.00 you are paying for the highest quality steels, and the highest quality bearing units more anything else. Dies are dies...
If there is one word to describe both - "overbuilt". They have to be for their intended market.
The Kowa on the other hand is a "single personality" and "single user machine". It uses the basic grades of steels and bearings necessary for the machine to work and last under primarily one personality who has just enough mechanical know how to maintain and get a "feel" for it so to speak. It is good enough for the shop with one wheel builder who does all the wheel building and handles spokes for the general mechanic - and it's also a great machine for the shop who wants to send one wheel builder home to build additional wheels - but at minimal tooling expense.
The Phil and Morizumi by design are:
1. Multi-personality machines.
2. Multi-user machines.
Because of that they are high volume "workshop" machines. Any workshop machine that is going to function consistently and reliably has to be over constructed materials-wise to ensure that it can for the long term can survive the wear and tear that occurs from multiple users with multiple personalities who also happen to bring an occasional weird handling "quirk" to bear. When you pay our 3700.00 and 4000.00 you are paying for the highest quality steels, and the highest quality bearing units more anything else. Dies are dies...
If there is one word to describe both - "overbuilt". They have to be for their intended market.
The Kowa on the other hand is a "single personality" and "single user machine". It uses the basic grades of steels and bearings necessary for the machine to work and last under primarily one personality who has just enough mechanical know how to maintain and get a "feel" for it so to speak. It is good enough for the shop with one wheel builder who does all the wheel building and handles spokes for the general mechanic - and it's also a great machine for the shop who wants to send one wheel builder home to build additional wheels - but at minimal tooling expense.
08-14-12, 10:26 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
I have access to a spoke thread roller; I think it's a Hozan, it looks like this:
Problem is, the head is marked 14g, and I want to extend the threads on some 15g spokes. Is it possible to just screw up the adjuster so it's tight enough to do 15g, or would that be outside its range?
Problem is, the head is marked 14g, and I want to extend the threads on some 15g spokes. Is it possible to just screw up the adjuster so it's tight enough to do 15g, or would that be outside its range?
I've seen other spoke threaders very similar to the Hozan, and they state that you can thread both 14g and 15g spokes, so I assume it could be done with your tool as well.
08-14-12, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wroomwroomoops
A very interesting discussion, on multy-personality vs. single-personality tools. I've never thought of them in these terms.
It's easy to design something that is single user and single personality- single user = personal. Personal = getting a feel for and caring for.
That can be supported if it stays that way...
But the moment you go multi-user AND multi-personality - the design is now at the mercy of unknowns, swings, extremes and just plain outright weird. Support becomes an utter nightmare.
To solve that, you have to address the obvious - adjust the design in order to structure the support to a level that is reasonable AND profitable.
Result? Overbuild AND constrict support only to specified operational modes.
You see this on metal lathe labels all the time - metal labels riveted to the surface of the lathe itself. Same for drill presses...
Oh, and I forgot to mention the other obvious result - the selling price of the modified design when produced skyrockets.
=8-)
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
08-14-12, 11:17 AM
#54
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
Problem is, the head is marked 14g, and I want to extend the threads on some 15g spokes. Is it possible to just screw up the adjuster so it's tight enough to do 15g, or would that be outside its range?
08-14-12, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SweetLou
If you do have a Hozan, then it will do both. Besides tightening the rollers, you also need to adjust the spoke clamp. It comes from the factory so that a 14g spoke is centered between the rollers. You need to adjust it so that the 15g spoke is centered.
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08-22-12, 12:44 PM
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Update:
Finally was able to get to the LBS and bring this wheel in. Neither owner was there but was helped by the nice kid at the front.
"I've had a wheel like that, it shouldn't be too big of a deal... [looks at it] Oh, that's like five threads showing on that one. That doesn't seem right. Hmmm. Let me see what our tech says."
He brought it to the back and talked to one of their mechanics. Came out and said it's up to me, whatever I want them to do. That the tech said the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
Finally was able to get to the LBS and bring this wheel in. Neither owner was there but was helped by the nice kid at the front.
"I've had a wheel like that, it shouldn't be too big of a deal... [looks at it] Oh, that's like five threads showing on that one. That doesn't seem right. Hmmm. Let me see what our tech says."
He brought it to the back and talked to one of their mechanics. Came out and said it's up to me, whatever I want them to do. That the tech said the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
08-22-12, 01:03 PM
#58
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The fact that they would consider replacing with longer nipples is not good:
1. Nipples are not spokes, and aren't intended to act as such.
2. Too short spokes = eventually nipple barrel and nipple head separation.
They should know better. Clearly they build wheels by habit and by winging it - not by any understanding of even the most basic wheel building science.
And I don't claim to be an expert at wheel building "science" though I do play one on BikeForums TV.
Recommendation: When it comes to custom wheel builds, find a new LBS.
=8-)
1. Nipples are not spokes, and aren't intended to act as such.
2. Too short spokes = eventually nipple barrel and nipple head separation.
They should know better. Clearly they build wheels by habit and by winging it - not by any understanding of even the most basic wheel building science.
And I don't claim to be an expert at wheel building "science" though I do play one on BikeForums TV.
Recommendation: When it comes to custom wheel builds, find a new LBS.
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
08-22-12, 01:29 PM
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Get your money back. Explain that it's time for you to go somewhere else. Then explain to them that suggesting swapping in longer nipples was a warning sign to you.
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08-22-12, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by inkandsilver
Update:...the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
I'm with mrrabbit, don't have wheels built here and be careful what else you bring to them for fixing. They shouldn't be trying to convince you that the short spokes are no big deal, instead they should have just fessed up & fixed the problem. It makes you wonder if they are not experienced enough and don't care about their work or just not experienced enough. Either situation will raise flags.
Last edited by ratdog; 08-22-12 at 03:05 PM. Reason: fixed typo
08-22-12, 01:54 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by inkandsilver
Update:
Finally was able to get to the LBS and bring this wheel in. Neither owner was there but was helped by the nice kid at the front.
"I've had a wheel like that, it shouldn't be too big of a deal... [looks at it] Oh, that's like five threads showing on that one. That doesn't seem right. Hmmm. Let me see what our tech says."
He brought it to the back and talked to one of their mechanics. Came out and said it's up to me, whatever I want them to do. That the tech said the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
Finally was able to get to the LBS and bring this wheel in. Neither owner was there but was helped by the nice kid at the front.
"I've had a wheel like that, it shouldn't be too big of a deal... [looks at it] Oh, that's like five threads showing on that one. That doesn't seem right. Hmmm. Let me see what our tech says."
He brought it to the back and talked to one of their mechanics. Came out and said it's up to me, whatever I want them to do. That the tech said the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
Originally Posted by mrrabbit
The fact that they would consider replacing with longer nipples is not good:
1. Nipples are not spokes, and aren't intended to act as such.
2. Too short spokes = eventually nipple barrel and nipple head separation.
They should know better. Clearly they build wheels by habit and by winging it - not by any understanding of even the most basic wheel building science.
1. Nipples are not spokes, and aren't intended to act as such.
2. Too short spokes = eventually nipple barrel and nipple head separation.
They should know better. Clearly they build wheels by habit and by winging it - not by any understanding of even the most basic wheel building science.
EDIT: the very fact that they gave you that wheel to bring home tells me they're dishonest, and you should just get your money back and have nothing to do with them anymore. Of course, you won't do this.
08-22-12, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wroomwroomoops
EDIT: the very fact that they gave you that wheel to bring home tells me they're dishonest, and you should just get your money back and have nothing to do with them anymore. Of course, you won't do this.
08-22-12, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo
08-22-12, 05:54 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by inkandsilver
Update:
Finally was able to get to the LBS and bring this wheel in. Neither owner was there but was helped by the nice kid at the front.
"I've had a wheel like that, it shouldn't be too big of a deal... [looks at it] Oh, that's like five threads showing on that one. That doesn't seem right. Hmmm. Let me see what our tech says."
He brought it to the back and talked to one of their mechanics. Came out and said it's up to me, whatever I want them to do. That the tech said the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
Finally was able to get to the LBS and bring this wheel in. Neither owner was there but was helped by the nice kid at the front.
"I've had a wheel like that, it shouldn't be too big of a deal... [looks at it] Oh, that's like five threads showing on that one. That doesn't seem right. Hmmm. Let me see what our tech says."
He brought it to the back and talked to one of their mechanics. Came out and said it's up to me, whatever I want them to do. That the tech said the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. I'll post again if there are any other interesting developments. Many thanks to all for the help you provided.
1. incorrect lacing? or
2. incorrectly using three different spoke length?
Either way, it's an error on their part. Not owning up to it and solving it properly would tend to make me want to go elsewhere. Once burned...
08-22-12, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by inkandsilver
" Let me see what our tech says."
He brought it to the back and talked to one of their mechanics. Came out and said it's up to me,
whatever I want them to do. That the tech said the simplest thing would be to just replace the nipples
with longer ones... but that they would rebuild it with new spokes if I want them to.
So they are going to rebuild it. He was very nice about it. .
I weep for the future of my country........
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08-22-12, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wroomwroomoops
That's not a rule. It's not even a heuristic guiding principle. It's just a soundbite that people keep repeating without thinking. If you're going to stick with the "Never attribute to malice..." phrase...
When I look around I tend to see a lot of incompetence, but that hardly means there's no such thing as malevolence. Besides, malevolence is the only explanation for crap like banksters walking free...
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Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
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