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-   -   Need lower gears on 8-speed ultegra setup (https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/841688-need-lower-gears-8-speed-ultegra-setup.html)

LarDasse74 10-16-12 03:14 PM


Originally Posted by IthaDan (Post 14848083)
Only issue you might have is the locknut width on the xtr hub and the rear stay width on your masi. The hub is 135mm and the frame is 126mm if that's a 7speed tricolor downtube shifter, and 130mm if its an 8 speed tricolor downtube shifter.

(If it IS an 8 speed, and you're willing to sell it, please PM me, I've been looking for one of these for a long time, as well as tricolor brake levers- looking to downgrade a bike of mine.)

You misread the question - he wants to use the XTR cassette on a Dura-Ace hub, which is 130mm spacing. He will likely have to stretch the frame 2mm on each side to get the wheel in, but that probably won't be a problem, unless there is not enough clearance for the 8 speed cassette at the driveside dropout (chain or cassette interference)

Dave Mayer 10-16-12 03:15 PM


Originally Posted by calamarichris (Post 14848021)
Zombie Thread Revival. It appears you guys have answered my question as well, but I'd appreciate confirmation:

8-Speed, Tri-Color 600/Ultegra Brifter + Dura Ace 7402 Derailleur + Shimano XTR 11-28, 8-speed HG cassette will work okay?

This will not work. The 7402 derailleur cable pull requirement does not match that produced by the Shimano 600 right brifter. This issue has been beat to death. Pre-9-speed Dura-Ace is generally incompatible with everything else in Shimano's lineup. Besides, the 7402 has limited chain wrap capability - you'd be better served with pretty much any other derailleur (road or mountain) in Shimano's lineup. Except for the 10-speed Shimano mountain bike stuff - which is also incompatible with your brifters.

Suggestions - take it or leave it:
  • Install a 13-30 8-speed cassette. This eliminates a couple of useless cogs - the 11 and the 12. Unless you are contesting bunch sprints on a weekly basis, they don't get used.
  • Get a mid-level Shimano MTB derailleur. An old mid-cage DX or XT unit would cost next to nothing and not look too out of place.
  • Sell the aero brakes on Ebay and get some dual-pivots.

Al1943 10-16-12 03:19 PM


Originally Posted by LarDasse74 (Post 14848089)
No it will not work. 8 speed DA rear derailleurs have a different actuation ratio from 8 speed anything else. There may be a way to make it work (alternate cable routing, shiftmate, etc) but they won't play well together without some fudging. Cassette will work fine on that hub though.

This is correct.
However it is possible to use any 9-speed Shimano shifters with the 8-speed Dura-Ace rear derailleur to shift any 8-speed Shimano cassette. This is because the 8-speed D-A shifters have the same cable pull as the 9-speed Shimano shifters. Read more here:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

IthaDan 10-16-12 03:24 PM


Originally Posted by calamarichris (Post 14848051)
Beautiful! THANK YOU DAN!
I've decided to turn my Masi into a more rideable bike. She's going to be spending less time hanging on the wall and more time out in the sunshine. (But only on perfect weather days and clean roads.)
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/090814-masi-1.jpg

Sorry to get your hopes up with the bad advice. I have a tricolor RD I'd trade you straight up for the da one. :/

calamarichris 10-16-12 04:04 PM


Originally Posted by Dave Mayer (Post 14848151)
This will not work. The 7402 derailleur cable pull requirement does not match that produced by the Shimano 600 right brifter. This issue has been beat to death. Pre-9-speed Dura-Ace is generally incompatible with everything else in Shimano's lineup. Besides, the 7402 has limited chain wrap capability - you'd be better served with pretty much any other derailleur (road or mountain) in Shimano's lineup. Except for the 10-speed Shimano mountain bike stuff - which is also incompatible with your brifters.

Suggestions - take it or leave it:
  • Install a 13-30 8-speed cassette. This eliminates a couple of useless cogs - the 11 and the 12. Unless you are contesting bunch sprints on a weekly basis, they don't get used.
  • Get a mid-level Shimano MTB derailleur. An old mid-cage DX or XT unit would cost next to nothing and not look too out of place.
  • Sell the aero brakes on Ebay and get some dual-pivots.

Nuts. Thanks Dave, but my vanity simply won't abide an MTB derailleur on my Beloved Masi. I'd rather go with a 13-26. (Though I'm going to be spinning my guts out to get up to 55kph on sprints now. :D)
I just won this Ebay auction and have always loved the look of the Tricolor stuff:
http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/89000...d718bf09cd.jpg

Going to see how well the 600 brifter play with the AX brakes, and will put on the 600 sidepulls if they still stink. And I guess keep an eye out for an NOS tricolor RD too. :) (Sorry Dan, gotta have NOS for my Beauty.)
Many thanks fellows!

calamarichris 10-16-12 04:22 PM


Originally Posted by LarDasse74 (Post 14848146)
You misread the question - he wants to use the XTR cassette on a Dura-Ace hub, which is 130mm spacing. He will likely have to stretch the frame 2mm on each side to get the wheel in, but that probably won't be a problem, unless there is not enough clearance for the 8 speed cassette at the driveside dropout (chain or cassette interference)

Getting the frame spread proper at Cyclart, just down the street to accomodate the 130 hub. :)

calamarichris 10-16-12 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by Dave Mayer (Post 14848151)
This will not work. The 7402 derailleur cable pull requirement does not match that produced by the Shimano 600 right brifter. This issue has been beat to death. Pre-9-speed Dura-Ace is generally incompatible with everything else in Shimano's lineup.

Apologies for my dullness. For clarification's sake, this is an EIGHT-Speed, Shimano 6400 brifter we're talking about, not a 9-speed 6600.
The 6400 is still not compatible with a 7402 EIGHT-Speed rear derailleur?
http://s4f9b55a471ef4.img.gostorego....1280x853_1.jpg http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...a1K0DXe_cEOyoA

You left me a little wiggle-room for being obtuse when you mentioned NINE-speed, and Sheldon Brown seems to suggest that it will work with the alternate cable routing method. Does that method stink? Really love that RD, but I'll change it if it means crisp shifting on my baby.

If it's absolutely not compatible, will my Sante Rear Derailleur work?
http://www.velobase.com/CompImages/R...B9A872B60.jpeg

LarDasse74 10-16-12 05:44 PM

The alternate routing he says can make DA shifters work with a non-DA derailleur, not non-DA shifters (like the tri-colour 600) with a DA derailleur.

This is not to say there is no way to do it, but that there is not a well-known way to make it work.

I don't understand the charts on the page linked by 1943 (TLDR) but there are some numbers that are the same under old DA and other systems that might mean it is possible to use a modern 9-speed shifter with an old DA derailleur. But non-DA 8 speed shifters with old DA derailleur? Nope.

I don't know what Santé works with, but if it is an indexed (SIS) derailleur then it will probably work.

Dave Mayer 10-17-12 10:18 AM

The Shimano 600 shifters will not work with any pre-9-speed Dura-Ace derailleurs. My language was chosen carefully. Pre 9-speed means both 7 and 8 speed Dura-Ace. Or 6 and 5 speed for that matter.

But the Sante derailleur will work. You like super short cage derailleurs... The Dura-Ace has little chain wrap capacity. The Sante is the only other derailleur I can think of that has even less capacity. I think it handles a 26 tooth cog -barely. A 600 Tricolor unit would be a better choice; it can easily handle a 39/53 ring combo with a 28 cog.

fietsbob 10-17-12 10:54 AM

! 1st hand research.. be your own Berto..
Set up a measurement jig. with a scale on your cable pull,
and a second one to measure the sideways motion
when the parallelogram is pulled by that cable,
moving the chain pulley in to the bike center-line...

calamarichris 10-17-12 11:10 AM

I apologize Dave, and thank you very much for the extra clarification. Not everyone puts much care into their words, and I really wanted that 7402 RD to work.
I've got an NIB set of Sante Derailleurs stored, but I'll shop around for a matching Ultegra set, so she shifts nice.
Brifters have spoiled me, and those overloud-snapping downtube shifters are supremely annoying now. Every time I ride that Masi, the same thought echoes repeatedly: "Did I really spend the first 15 years of my cycling life enduring this?!?!"

It's funny how technology changes us. I recently returned to Glendora Mountain Road after 17 years. That used to be a fairly tough climb when I was a young, fit teenager, so I couldn't believe how EASY it was to fly up that mountain like I was coasting uphill! I'd been training pretty hard that year, but it honestly felt like the pedals were turning themselves. I started entertaining fantasies of racing again, of riding entire pelotons off my wheel and lapping them... then I remembered that I was pedaling a 39-27, instead of the 42-21's we all had back in the 80's. :D
It was a shining fantasy while it lasted though.

And thanks Bob. I'm usually a tinkerer and an empiricist, but there's no sense in wasting shift cables to relearn what others have learned and documented. Thanks though!

retroroadie 10-17-12 11:59 AM

Alternative Solution - Dura-Ace Rear D.
 
1 Attachment(s)
LarDasse74 (great name - lol) is correct; the 8-speed D-A rear in not compatible. However, if you really want to use the D-A rear D, another alternative to the alternate cable routings and Shiftmates is this simple little device:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=279008

It bolts onto the rear d's cable clamp, changes the pull ratio cleanly, and makes it compatible with the rest of Shimano's road stuff. At the time, it was very popular amongst racers who didn't feel like risking expensive D-A brifters on a season of rainy crits. Depending on how long your LBS has been around, it may still be kicking around in their parts bins. Luck.

Al1943 10-17-12 01:40 PM

I seem to have confused some folks in post #28. What I said in the post is correct.
The 8-speed D-A rear derailleur is not compatible with any shifters except 8-speed D-A shifters and 9-speed Shimano (including D-A) shifters.
If the OP wants to use the 8-speed D-A RD it will work perfectly with any 9-speed Shimano shifters with the standard cable attachment. There will simply have an extra click.
D-A 8-speed shifters have the same cable pull as all Shimano 9-speed shifters. And, of course, the 8-speed D-A RD was designed to work with the 8-speed D-A shifters. Therefore it will also work with any 9-speed Shimano shifter to shift 8-speed Shimano cassettes.
If the OP is set on using the 8-speed Shimano 600 (Ultegra) shifters he can try the "hubub" cable connection with the D-A 8-speed RD.


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