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Help fix my wheel Spokes contacting derailluer cage

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Help fix my wheel Spokes contacting derailluer cage

Old 09-07-12, 08:54 PM
  #1  
r0cket88
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Help fix my wheel Spokes contacting derailluer cage

Before I get the default answer of "You need to adjust your limit screws and check the alignment of your derailleur hanger." I have already done that.

Also, I am sorry this will be long, but I feel I need to give all of the pertinent info that I can.

For the “To Long I won’t read that” crowd:
Two spokes on the Drive side of the rear wheel are contacting the inside of the derailleur cage.
Limits properly adjusted 3 times.
Derailleur hanger checked for square to the wheel by a local framebuilder.
Two spokes verified as out approximately 3-5mm from all of the other spokes on that wheel.

1) This bike was a rebuild from my first frame (1988 Schwinn Tempo) which had a cracked headtube. Most of the components were carryover from the old frame to the new frame (Surly Pacer). This includes the rear derailleur, but not the wheels.

2) Bike Details:
Rear Derailleur is a Shimano 105 RD1050.
Wheels are Vuelta Stylus Corsa with Shimano Sora (FH-3300) Hubs and 14 Guage (straight Guage) Spokes.
Upgraded the rear from the early 6 speed freewheel to an 8 speed (13-26) Cassette.
All on a new this season Surly Pacer frame.

3) Problem history:
I have been riding this new frame combination since early spring. About 4 months ago I was on a ride and broke a spoke on the drive side of the rear wheel.
I took the wheel into the LBS and asked them to replace the spoke which they did. Prior to this incident I had no issues whatsoever with the derailleur contacting the spokes. After the LBS replaced the spoke I started hearing the occasional “Ting” as I was in the largest cog and pedaling hard up a hill. Upon closer inspection both on and off the bike, I determined that the inside of the derailleur cage was just barely contacting the spokes.

So I took the chain and derailleur off and adjusted it per the Shimano install instructions. I made sure to correctly adjust the upper limit, the lower limit and the cable tension. The bike shifted fine after this, but I would still get the occasional “Ting” on climbs.

I took the complete bike back to the LBS and asked them to look at it. He adjusted the upper limit to keep the derailleur out of the wheel and gave it back to me. In his mind that was the end of the story. Yet still I was getting the occasional “Ting” on climbs.

When I began looking closer, I discovered that there were only 2 spokes that were contacting the derailuer cage. When looking at the bike from the back, these spokes were noticeably closer to the derailleur than the rest of the spokes on the wheel.

I then took it to LBS #2 who is a respected framebuilder, and asked him to look at the wheel. When he installed the wheel in the truing stand he was able to use a pointer to determine that the two spokes I indicated were indeed set out from all of the other spokes by approximately 3 to 5 mm. After inspecting the spokes he determined that they were all the same brand and style of spoke and that the wheel was laced correctly. He also looked at the frame and squared the derailleur hanger to the wheel for me to ensure that this was not the problem.

Here I am today. I still get the occasional “Ting” on climbs, and I really don’t want to catch the cage in the spokes.

Anybody Have any Ideas? I’m at my wits end.
Thanks in advance for all of your help. It is most definitely appreciated.
I'll Try to post some pictures in my next post.

-Rick W.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:00 PM
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First Picture is of the inside of the rear derailleur. I put a small red circle around the area that is contacting the spokes. You can also see some Green where I marked the area with a sharpie when I took the bike to the framebuilder.

Second picture is an overall of the bike.

Third Picture is an overview of the rear wheel. The two pieces of tape are the two spokes that are causing the problem.

The fourth picture is a closer view of the offending spokes.

Any more questions or pictures, let me know and I can certainly get them.

-Again, Thanks for all of your help.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Derailluer.jpg (99.9 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg
Pacer 1.jpg (97.3 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg
Rear Wheel.jpg (101.5 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg
Spokes.jpg (100.4 KB, 48 views)

Last edited by r0cket88; 09-07-12 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Update photo info.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:03 PM
  #3  
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Originally Posted by r0cket88 View Post
.....When he installed the wheel in the truing stand he was able to use a pointer to determine that the two spokes I indicated were indeed set out from all of the other spokes by approximately 3 to 5 mm. ....

Here I am today. I still get the occasional “Ting” on climbs, and I really don’t want to catch the cage in the spokes.
-Rick W.
From your description I suspect that the problem is the wheel, not the RD or frame.

In short, I believe your wheel has severely uneven tension.

Picture the following in your mind, or look at a wheel as you read. With interlaced spokes (inner over outer at the crosses) each spoke is slightly bent on the way from the hub to rim. Now imagine if one of the pair is tightened. It'll straighten, pushing it's partner out of the way. In that way, if the spoke that's crossing inside is tighter than it's outboard partner, it'll push the cross outward causing your problem.

Have a knowledgeable mechanic or wheelbuilder take a look at the wheel, and use a tension gauge if necessary to confirm my diagnosis of uneven tension and correct it by tightening the spoke outside at the cross while loosening it's partner. Do that for both problem crosses, then make sure the rest of the wheel is up to snuff.

If I'm right, you now have another problem, and that this is something that any skilled mechanic with the wheel in his hands should have had no problem diagnosing and correcting so you might wonder what else they don't know.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:05 PM
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I agree completely. I am just at a loss as to how to explain why these two particular spokes are out of line.
The framebuilder even agreed, but he couldn't find any reason for it.
I'm just hoping to get a few more ideas as to what I could have checked or why those two spokes are out of line.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:06 PM
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Perhaps BOTH spokes have been laced heads-in - and interlaced - with one being pushed out as a result?

We need a picture of:

1. View from the NDS side of the offending spokes - including their flange.
2. Direct backside view of the derailleur hanger - derailleur and drive side spoke and cassette separation.

=8-)
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Old 09-07-12, 09:12 PM
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I would suspect something peculiar going on with spoke tension. Perhaps the 'trailing' spoke is slightly over-tightened so that it does not as much of a bend in it, and it is pushing the 'leading' spoke out. Or maybe that spot on the wheel just has insufficiently tensioned or 'stress relieved' spokes.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:18 PM
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Is the rear wheel properly centered, means correctly dished? (That could have changed when the first LBS replaced the spokes) Because if not (and drive side spoke are too tight non drive side too loose), it would bring the drive side spokes closer to the derailleur. Also the lacing can contribute depending last crossing of the trailing spoke crosses over or under the spokes. Sheldon says better over because of that reason that the trailing spokes on hard pedalling then pull inward away from the derailleur, (others say the other way around is better for other reasons).
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Old 09-07-12, 09:18 PM
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The image 1124 and 1125 are an attempt to show the different amount of spacing between the spokes and the derailleur cage.

Let me know if you need anything else.
Again, I appreciate all of the help.

The local framebuilder did do a compete true on the wheel.
He indicated it was slightly out of true and he brought it back into true but he did not mention anything to me at least about the spoke tension.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
IMAG1120.jpg (99.3 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg
IMAG1121.jpg (84.9 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg
IMAG1122.jpg (91.9 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg
IMAG1123.jpg (91.8 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg
IMAG1124.jpg (92.0 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg
IMAG1125.jpg (92.5 KB, 28 views)
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Old 09-07-12, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by saturnhr View Post
Is the rear wheel properly centered, means correctly dished? (That could have changed when the first LBS replaced the spokes) Because if not (and drive side spoke are too tight non drive side too loose), it would bring the drive side spokes closer to the derailleur. Also the lacing can contribute depending last crossing of the trailing spoke crosses over or under the spokes. Sheldon says better over because of that reason that the trailing spokes on hard pedalling then pull inward away from the derailleur, (others say the other way around is better for other reasons).
I don't believe the Dish would have changed as there are only 2 spokes that are causing the problem. The rest of them are all in line and spaced correctly from the locknut as measured on the truing stand. Only those two spokes are affected.

Also, I am certainly no expert, but I believe these two spokes are laced exactly the same as all of the other spokes on the drive side.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:25 PM
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Did they make inner spokes into outer spokes or visa-versa ?
In other words do they match the way the other spokes look coming from the hub?
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Old 09-07-12, 09:26 PM
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Still pictures don't help me. What I'd want to see is video of the spinning wheel shot edgewise so I could see where the spokes are bulging out.

However, your description was enough. Reread the 3rd paragraph of my prior post, then look at your wheel or pluck the spokes and I'll bet 3 beers that the the offending spokes are off pitch.

This is a problem common to modern wheels that was impossible 40 years ago. Back then rims were very light and squirrely. It was impossible to build an aligned wheel with uneven tension, because every spoke was critical, and the least difference in tension moved the rim. Modern rims are much stiffer, being made to accommodate low spoke count wheels. They are rigid enough to span a slack spoke without deflecting, so it's possible to build wheels that appear aligned despite tension problems.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:32 PM
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Well then, Any recommendations for a very knowledgeable shop and or wheel-builder in the Southeast Michigan area?
At this point I would have to Say that FBinNY has come up with the best explanation I have heard and I would like to get it tested by a known good wheel builder in my area if anyone has a recommendation. Unfortunately, I think this is just a little outside my particular comfort level.

BTW FB, about your PM. I understand, and I think I just missed your edit while I was trying to reply to others. I apologize. Can't reply to PM's yet either.
Again Thanks for your insight, it has been very valuable.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:37 PM
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Okay good pictures...

One more question though:

When the framebuilder checked things for you - did he ensure that the wheel was properly dished (rim center between lock nuts), installed and centered between chain stays BEFORE doing a derailleur hanger alignment.

Agree with FBinNY, a video would be nice.

=8-)
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Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 09-07-12, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by r0cket88 View Post
Well then, Any recommendations for a very knowledgeable shop and or wheel-builder in the Southeast Michigan area?
I guessed that with a handle like rocket88 you might be from the Detroit area, thanks for confirming. I don't know anybody there offhand, but call Yellow Jersey in Madison Wisc., ask for Andy, and tell him Francis from NY thought he'd know someone trustworthy in Michigan. I'll email him to expect the call, so he'll have thought about it.

BTW- put your city or area in your profile. It'll be easier for folks to route you to good shops.
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Old 09-07-12, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Okay good pictures...

One more question though:

When the framebuilder checked things for you - did he ensure that the wheel was properly dished (rim center between lock nuts), installed and centered between chain stays BEFORE doing a derailleur hanger alignment.
Curious, what would dish have to do with a problem where only one or two spokes bow out and touch the RD?
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Old 09-07-12, 10:19 PM
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As a precaution while you get the wheel sorted out, it
would probably not be out of the question to readjust
the limit screw to temporarily prevent travel onto your
largest rear cog.

Up to you, really, but that's what I'd do until I had a
better handle on whether you're gonna grab that cage
with a spoke..........always a bummer.
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Old 09-07-12, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Curious, what would dish have to do with a problem where only one or two spokes bow out and touch the RD?
Getting there FBinNY...

...and my next question was going to be, "Has the rim suffered a flat spot resulting in 2-3 very loose spokes?

Still would like to see a video though...



Anyhow, looking at photos 1122 and 1123, unless the photo angle is fooling me, it looks almost as though the derailleur is off in the horizontal plane - pointing a few degrees rightward or away from the centerline. This would be expected if a wheel that was off-dish to the left was centered in the frame and the derailleur hanger aligned against it.


=8-)
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Disclaimer:

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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

Last edited by mrrabbit; 09-07-12 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 09-08-12, 12:09 AM
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Another question for the OP:

BEFORE you had the broken spoke incident, did the wheel when spinning appear to have a group of 2-4 spokes that flared or wavered in contrast to the rest of the spokes in the wheel?

=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 09-08-12, 01:05 AM
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You may just want to mitigate the problem. Assuming there is not a great difference in tension, you may simply have a spoke that got itself bent while being laced in a way that is sticking out a little and pushing the other spoke with it. I had a similar problem when I replaced a broken spoke. First I would re-seat the spokes; I use the handle to an 8" Crescent wrench. Insert the handle from the rim side down into the "V" between the spokes that cross on the same side (the handle should be as far down into the V as possible). and push the wrench head over, bending one spoke into the other. Another thing that would mitigate the problem is simply bending the problem spokes closer to the middle. Just grab the two from the drive so your palm is right at the V and wrap your fingers around the adjacent two spokes on the non-drive side and squeeze the spokes together while pushing a little more pressure with your palm (the drive side spokes are tensioned more than the non-drive side so it may take a bit of effort pushing against the trouble spokes). You may also want to change the dish of the spokes so the center is a little more to the left; minor tire wobble can be a few millimeters. Finally you can cheat you derailleur hanger out a little. 8 speed shifters are much more forgiving than 9 or 10, so a millimeter or two should be a problem. Also some derailleur hanger tools rely on the rear wheel to be square so any discrepancy such as a 1mm wobble will not throw it off (it may actually be a 1mm or 2 off too close). By the time you are done with even a few of these tweaks, there will be plenty of room for the chain moving between the rear derailleur and spokes.

Edit: One more thing; it looks like you have enough room between the lockring and the dropout to put a 1-2mm spacer; generally the cassette should cover a small portion of the cone lock-nut and there should be no extra spacers on the right side of the axle; if your cassette to too close to the wheel it can also throw off your chainline.

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Old 09-09-12, 10:33 AM
  #20  
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Well, Final results. Here they are:

After thinking about everything that was said on here, I decided to at least attempt to get myself closer to correct and then take the wheel to another LBS to have the final true done.
I noticed that when I plucked the two spokes that were involved they were significantly different tones which seemed to indicate that they were not evenly tensioned.
I have a spoke wrench and so I took it to my wheel and here is what I did:
First I relieved some tension on the rear of the two spokes.
Next I added tension to the front of the two spokes.
After doing this I plucked the spokes again and they were now significantly closer in tone than before.
I also noted that the cross that had been sticking out was now lining up significantly better with the rest of the spokes on the drive side of the wheel.
After I looked at that, I looked at the rim movement on both sides relative to the brake pads, and I noticed the rim was slightly out of true.
A little bit of adjusting to a few spokes on the non-drive side seemed to bring the wheel back in pretty close.

Took it to the LBS and after he put it in the truing stand, he didn't even bother charging me anything because it was so close.

I took a ride in the afternoon on saturday, and I didn't hear the derailleur hit that set of spokes once.
I even made a point of pouring on the steam in the low gear and doing everything I could in order to get it to hit and I could not get it to contact anymore.

Thanks to all on this site.
I really appreciate all of the help in getting this solved.
At least now I can ride without fear of crashing my derailleur and doing a header over the bars...

-Rick W.

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Old 09-09-12, 10:44 AM
  #21  
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Thanks for giving us an update...

Okay, good news for now...

While it looks like you have addressed the immediate problem, get back to us if you break spokes again in the same area. My thinking is that you may have rim with an extrusion defect - such that a "soft" or "relaxed" spot exists that results in a small group of spokes in that spot ending up slightly under tension compared to the rest of the spokes. Can also be caused by bad joints - but not in your case.

It's pretty common Star Circle made rims from China, and also common with Alex rims that come with bottom line entry level road bikes from the major brands. Typically folks have to apply some more tension in exchange for an artificial flat spot and some minor out-of-true - or change the rim.

Other than that, good luck.

=8-)
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Old 09-09-12, 11:01 AM
  #22  
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Rocket,

Glad to hear it worked out as simply as I said it would. Simply a case of the mechanic who replaced the spoke incorrectly balancing the tension of the crossed pair when he replaced the spoke.

In any case, since you know what caused the problem, and it's been addressed, there's no cause to worry about other issues.
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Old 09-09-12, 11:05 AM
  #23  
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Oh, forgot one thing.

I asked earlier in this thread if you have noticed "wavering" of the spokes in the rear wheel as it spun before you had the broken spoke incident. Did you see groups of spokes in the past wavering in and out as the wheel spun?

=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 09-09-12, 12:30 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Oh, forgot one thing.

I asked earlier in this thread if you have noticed "wavering" of the spokes in the rear wheel as it spun before you had the broken spoke incident. Did you see groups of spokes in the past wavering in and out as the wheel spun?

=8-)
No, I had not noticed at all. Of Course to be completely honest, I wasn't paying any attention.
At the time the spoke broke, I had just recently had the bike built, and had no reason to suspect wheels were out of true or anything else similar.
But I do look at it as a cause and effect situation (my engineers mindset) and if I had no problems before the spoke replacement and then they exhibited themselves immediately thereafter, my inclination would be to blame the spoke replacement.

I will keep your comment regarding extrusion defects in mind. As an engineer I am all to familiar with manufacturing defects.
If I start breaking spokes again, you'll certainly see this thread pop back up again.

Again, Thanks for all of the help.
-Rick
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Old 09-09-12, 12:34 PM
  #25  
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Okay, thanks.

=8-)
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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