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Installation questions: older Shimano 600 brakes

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Installation questions: older Shimano 600 brakes

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Old 10-23-12, 08:15 PM
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jrickards
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Installation questions: older Shimano 600 brakes

I am having a bit of trouble installing my new-to-me Shimano 600 brakes. It appears that the "model" I have is either the Arabesque era or something similar.

First of all, is one a front brake and the other rear? If so, how do I tell them apart?

Secondly, I've just tried to install one of them on the front. The issue is that, like the image in the link, when I use the brake lever to close the brake, the release lever pops up. Is there a technique I'm missing?

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5209/5...bbdf4001_n.jpg

Thanks
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Old 10-23-12, 08:21 PM
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No expert but I think you got em backwards. On all my bikes, the cable enters the caliper on the right side (drive side).


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Old 10-23-12, 08:33 PM
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You have a newer double-pivot, mine is a single pivot. That may account for the difference unless I am installing the rear brake on the front. I'll have a look at that tomorrow.
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Old 10-23-12, 08:47 PM
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You have the entire cable quick release in the wrong postion. Hard to explain.

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...=117&AbsPos=10

Go browse on velobase and you may be able to see what I mean.
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Old 10-23-12, 08:56 PM
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Most (if not all) brakes are identical front and rear, except for the length of the mounting bolt. While the great majority are built with the cable of the right in the front, and left in the rear, (same brake flipped around) your brake proves that not all are. I wouldn't worry about which side the cable is on since there's nothing you can do about it anyway, just make sure the bolt's reach.

Also, clean up the quick release mechanism and make sure it's fully engaged so it doesn't come open when you apply the brake.
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Old 10-24-12, 12:53 AM
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[QUOTE=Mr. Beanz;14873669]No expert but I think you got em backwards. On all my bikes, the cable enters the caliper on the right side (drive side).



If my history is correct this era of 600 and dura ace brakes were a copy or modeled after Campagnolo brake calipers. My understanding is the brake routing was made to enter on the left because the front brake lever in Europe, unlike in the US, has traditionally been on the right hand side of the handlebars. Moped, motorbike, and motorcycle has been the popular means of transport in Europe, especially Italy, due to high road use taxes, high fuel costs, lack of parking, and narrow streets. Most motorized bike type vehicles are set up so that the left lever is the clutch, right lever is the front brake, and rear brake is operated by a foot pedal on the right side. To reduce confusion when bicycling, bicycles in Europe are traditionally set up with the front brake connected to the right hand brake lever. I am not sure why brake calipers had their routing switched but I assume it was to cater to the large American market where the front brake lever has traditionally been set up on the left.

-j
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Old 10-24-12, 05:29 AM
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Sometimes the quick release gets spread apart and doesn't hold to the studs. You may have to bend them back together some.
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Old 10-24-12, 07:08 AM
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I'd say you want to make damn sure that QR is working properly, or just set the brake up with it open and live without the QR-ness.
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Old 10-24-12, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jrickards View Post
I am having a bit of trouble installing my new-to-me Shimano 600 brakes. It appears that the "model" I have is either the Arabesque era or something similar.

First of all, is one a front brake and the other rear? If so, how do I tell them apart?

Secondly, I've just tried to install one of them on the front. The issue is that, like the image in the link, when I use the brake lever to close the brake, the release lever pops up. Is there a technique I'm missing?

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5209/5...bbdf4001_n.jpg

Thanks
Greenfieldja is correct in his assessment; the older calipers are reverse of the newer calipers on the market.

jrickard's issue is with the cable routing through the QR, which the cable anchor bolt is a part of. Re-route the cable through the anchor bolt so it's between the head of the bolt and the 2 pronged washer at the back of the QR mechanism. When the QR is working properly, cable pull shouldn't cause the QR mechanism to move. It looks from your photo that the cable is between the 2 pronged washer and the middle of the QR mechanism, which is causing it to pop open.

Does your bike use recessed Allen bolts or aircraft nuts to attach the calipers to the frame?
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Old 10-24-12, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by oldskoolwrench View Post
Greenfieldja is correct in his assessment; the older calipers are reverse of the newer calipers on the market.

jrickard's issue is with the cable routing through the QR, which the cable anchor bolt is a part of. Re-route the cable through the anchor bolt so it's between the head of the bolt and the 2 pronged washer at the back of the QR mechanism. When the QR is working properly, cable pull shouldn't cause the QR mechanism to move. It looks from your photo that the cable is between the 2 pronged washer and the middle of the QR mechanism, which is causing it to pop open.

Does your bike use recessed Allen bolts or aircraft nuts to attach the calipers to the frame?
Just so we're clear, the photo is not of my bike and brakes but another I found that is similar. I will take some tonight and post them.

I don't recall seeing a 2-pronged washer but I'll have a look again, now that I know what I should be looking for.
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Old 10-25-12, 05:26 AM
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I am not exactly sure about your calipers but you should determine which direction the quick release tab needs to be rotated to open/close the caliper. There were some early caliper models that the tab moved in the reverse of todays calipers...specifically early Mavic calipers from that era which had the tab moving down to open/widen the caliper and up to close/narrow the caliper. Setting this in the wrong position when routing and anchoring the cable to the caliper can cause setup problems.

-j
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Old 10-25-12, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
No expert but I think you got em backwards. On all my bikes, the cable enters the caliper on the right side (drive side).


There, I fixed it.



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Old 10-25-12, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
There, I fixed it.



Wow, is that all I needed to do?
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Old 10-25-12, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
There, I fixed it.
So now my chainring tats will be on the left leg.
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Old 10-25-12, 01:56 PM
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[QUOTE=Greenfieldja;14874159]
Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
No expert but I think you got em backwards. On all my bikes, the cable enters the caliper on the right side (drive side).
If my history is correct this era of 600 and dura ace brakes were a copy or modeled after Campagnolo brake calipers. My understanding is the brake routing was made to enter on the left because the front brake lever in Europe, unlike in the US, has traditionally been on the right hand side of the handlebars. Moped, motorbike, and motorcycle has been the popular means of transport in Europe, especially Italy, due to high road use taxes, high fuel costs, lack of parking, and narrow streets. Most motorized bike type vehicles are set up so that the left lever is the clutch, right lever is the front brake, and rear brake is operated by a foot pedal on the right side. To reduce confusion when bicycling, bicycles in Europe are traditionally set up with the front brake connected to the right hand brake lever. I am not sure why brake calipers had their routing switched but I assume it was to cater to the large American market where the front brake lever has traditionally been set up on the left.

-j
Yep, the one thing the Europeans got right -- I always redo the cables on any bike I buy so that the right hand works the front brakes...because I am right handed and most of the braking capability of a bike is with the front wheel anyway.
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Old 10-25-12, 02:08 PM
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The QR on the 600 Arabesque points down when it is in the closed position... the brake with the longer post goes up front and the shorter post fits the rear brake bridge.

British made and British market bicycles were most likely to have right hand front brakes while the rest of the world seems to use the opposite... many older front brakes had the cable routing to the left side of the caliper and because of conventional levers and longer cable, swapping between left and right hand front brakes was not the same issue as it is with aero levers which have shorter cable runs.
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Old 05-22-13, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jrickards View Post
Just so we're clear, the photo is not of my bike and brakes but another I found that is similar. I will take some tonight and post them.

I don't recall seeing a 2-pronged washer but I'll have a look again, now that I know what I should be looking for.
jrickards, did you get this problem squared away? I have the same problem on my son's bike, and the photos in this thread don't show me what I'm doing wrong.
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Old 09-24-16, 01:58 PM
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Reviving this thread-have the same prob-same kind of caliper. No 2 prong washer that I can see.
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Old 09-24-16, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by juls View Post
Reviving this thread-have the same prob-same kind of caliper. No 2 prong washer that I can see.
I'm not 100% sure that I'm referring to the same brake, but maybe if I explain the basic concept, you can apply it to yous.

These releases operate on a simple design principle. When closed (riding position) the cable anchor ends up inboard of the pivot above it (7 o'clock if looking from the front). In this position the cable pulls it against the stop or brake arm itself so it's stable and can't open. If not closed fully, and the pivot is directly in line with the cable (6 o'clock) the cable can pull it over.

Regardless of the specifics of the design, all cable brake releases operate on the same principle, comparable of being behind the top of the hill and having to go up slightly before you can roll down the other side.

Look at the brake, consider the cable line, and anchor position and you should be able to dope it out.
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Old 09-24-16, 03:31 PM
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Cable is well inboard from the attachment. A bit hard to see in this pic...
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1474752677
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Old 09-24-16, 03:44 PM
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http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1474753372
sorry the pics went sideways!
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Old 09-24-16, 04:04 PM
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OK, the anchor position looks OK, but adjust seems to be pulled to an angle by the cable. This is swining the bottom out from it's normal line, and may be a factor.

Try routing the cable so it's coming straight down, and on a straight line to the anchor. You might have to route it to the other side of the stem, or make some other change.

Before doing so, you might try pulling the housing outward above the adjuster and seeing if that makes a difference. Also, check whatever is stopping the clamp assembly from moving inboard and see if there's anything you can do to give it more room to move.
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Old 09-24-16, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
OK, the anchor position looks OK, but adjust seems to be pulled to an angle by the cable. This is swining the bottom out from it's normal line, and may be a factor.

Try routing the cable so it's coming straight down, and on a straight line to the anchor. You might have to route it to the other side of the stem, or make some other change.

Before doing so, you might try pulling the housing outward above the adjuster and seeing if that makes a difference. Also, check whatever is stopping the clamp assembly from moving inboard and see if there's anything you can do to give it more room to move.
...yes. You can just barely see in your first picture here Referenced above) where the cable housing is coming into the barrel adjuster on the brake at angle. You want it to be exactly straight going in, or if it needs to be at an angle, it should be the opposite. As stated by FB, housing is either too short, or maybe routed badly. Or you might have too much of it up front and not enough slack above the brake for a nice curve (in the rear). Fool around with it, and after a while if it still doesn't work, hit it with a hammer. #justkidding
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Old 09-25-16, 01:26 AM
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Thanks all. I'll give it a go.
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Old 09-25-16, 02:53 AM
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Update. Resolved. Seems I was too ham fisted with the main installment bolt. Loosened allows the caliper to spring back without triggering the qr. Makes little sense to me. TA
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