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Full blown restoration

Old 03-20-13, 04:07 PM
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Patsquatch
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Full blown restoration

Hello all, new to the forum. I was cruising the net looking for advice on how to break down an old bike, I got most of it figured out minus the crankset. The bike isnt worth it financially but it was my dads in college and I used it a little in college as well, but it needs some love. Any who, one of the cotter pins had been broken off and I cant get it off to remove the second pedal. I tried hammering and drilling, no luck. once this is off I'll be able to remove the rest of the crank set with some what ease and it will be just a frame at that point. Then on to step two. My question is this, how do I get the second cotter pin out? If I posted this in the wrong section I apologize. Thanks in advance for any help! - Also the bike is a Concord Raven from the 70's with all original stuff.
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Old 03-20-13, 04:13 PM
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Do you Have a drift punch? [ Subset: do you know what one is?]
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Old 03-20-13, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Do you Have a drift punch? [ Subset: do you know what one is?]
I do know what one is but I don't have one. A screw driver perhaps? Drilling out didn't really work
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Old 03-20-13, 05:51 PM
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You will probably need a pointed drift punch and a big hammer and a solid surface to break the damaged cotter pin free.

Half the time I end up cutting the crankset off with a grinding/cutting wheel if the person is just going to upgrade to a modern square taper bb setup.
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Old 03-20-13, 06:28 PM
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Often cotters are either corroded in place or have developed a notch which makes removal difficult. Do NOT use a pointed drift punch or screwdriver, as that will just spread the cotter body. First put spray a good penetrant such as PB Blaster into the cotter hole and at the axle end. Tap (don't pound) the crank to help it into the interior, and leave it for a day - or at least a few hours. Brace the other end of the spindle against something very solid (block of wood against concrete wall) and tap on the crank - not the spindle. That can help break free corrosion between axle, crank and cotter. Finally, follow the portion of Sheldon's procedure at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/cotters.html starting with Absorbing the Impact with this addition: Temporarily reinstall the other crank and rotate it so that the cranks are horizontal, in line with each other. That will insure that the cotter is not sitting at an angle on the edge of the flat in the spindle. Then get a large flat punch or strong, round piece of steel just smaller than the cotter diameter as possible and give the cotter a good whack. It should come out. If still no go it's torch time, explained on the same Sheldon page.
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Old 03-20-13, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
Often cotters are either corroded in place or have developed a notch which makes removal difficult. Do NOT use a pointed drift punch or screwdriver, as that will just spread the cotter body. First put spray a good penetrant such as PB Blaster into the cotter hole and at the axle end. Tap (don't pound) the crank to help it into the interior, and leave it for a day - or at least a few hours. Brace the other end of the spindle against something very solid (block of wood against concrete wall) and tap on the crank - not the spindle. That can help break free corrosion between axle, crank and cotter. Finally, follow the portion of Sheldon's procedure at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/cotters.html starting with Absorbing the Impact with this addition: Temporarily reinstall the other crank and rotate it so that the cranks are horizontal, in line with each other. That will insure that the cotter is not sitting at an angle on the edge of the flat in the spindle. Then get a large flat punch or strong, round piece of steel just smaller than the cotter diameter as possible and give the cotter a good whack. It should come out. If still no go it's torch time, explained on the same Sheldon page.
See, I have had good luck using a pointed hardened punch to drive stubborn pins out. I have done some gunsmithing in the past and using a hardened steel pointed punch with a 3 or 5 pound hammer/sledge allows one to break free a seriously stuck barrel pin. The pointed punch allowed ALL of the shock from the hammer to be directed onto the pin at once without slipping. You also had to have a solid anvil type surface to work on. Doing it on a springy surface absorbs some of the shock and causes mushrooming of the pin. the problems arise from people not really using a heavy hard blow on the pin the first time to break the pin free. If you don't use a strong hard blow, it will mushroom the pin and make it a nightmare.
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Old 03-20-13, 07:26 PM
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well, I fear I did the worst I could possibly do and tried drilling it out, as the lubrication I was using didnt do a thing and it sat there all day with more than one application. So the drilling I fear has just spread the cotter pin out making it worse. Lets, hypothetically, say this happened, what would be the next best step? I dont have a lot of tools to cut it out, I'd like to avoid taking it to the bike shop so I dont get the looks of stupidity, which I think I earned haha great start to my first bike restoration! I do plan to upgrade to a more modern crank set so I'm not concerned about keeping current parts...I feel like a failure hahaha
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Old 03-20-13, 07:29 PM
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On the odd chance that you have something special, you might want to post some images of the bike in Classic & Vintage before you pull out the hacksaw. There, you will find some of the most friendly and helpful people on Bike Forums. They will know how to deal with things like cottered cranks and odd sized bottom brackets.

Take pictures of both sides of the bike, the components, as well as where the tubes come together (lugs).
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Old 03-20-13, 07:30 PM
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Get something that will fit in the cotter pin hole, and hammer it as hard as you can. If you are replacing the crank anyway, you don't have to worry about breaking anything.
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Old 03-20-13, 07:33 PM
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make sure you are attacking the pin from the threaded side, otherwise you just pound the wedge deeper into the crank.

Also find a way to support the crank arm where you are hammering so as to avoid damaging the frame.
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Old 03-20-13, 08:02 PM
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http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/CotterPress/index.html

A cotter press will make your life much easier. A suitable clamp can accomplish the same thing if you are lucky.
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Old 03-20-13, 08:29 PM
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How would this said clamp idea work? As I do not have a cotter press
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Old 03-20-13, 08:31 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Fenway View Post
http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/CotterPress/index.html

A cotter press will make your life much easier.
This. ^^^

Even if the pin is broken, you can often use e.g. an old ball bearing between the press and the broken shaft to push the pin out.
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Old 03-20-13, 08:45 PM
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You can accomplish the same task with a c-clamp for a lot less money then a cotter press. Find a nut or small socket that fits over the head of the pin place the fixed part of the nut/socket and use the compression end of the clamp on the base of the pin. Tighten the c-clamp until the pin is pressed as far as it can go with the socket or nut. Pull everything off, and you should be able to drive it out using a good punch. Barring that, put just use progressively longer sockets to give the pin remove to slide out, and stack old bearings in the hole to drive the pin out under the c-clamps force.

-Jenrick
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Old 03-20-13, 08:47 PM
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Compare a c-clamp to a cotter pin press.


They are very similar in design except the cotter press' threaded "pressing" tip is small enough to fit into the crank arm when tightened. This matters in your case because the threaded end is now missing. On the opposite side, the cotter press is forked to allow the cotter pin to slide out of the crank arm.

A c-clamp can be rigged to do the same thing. I've done it by using a phillips screwdriver tip on the press side and an open ended wrench on the opposite side. Squeeze it all together and the cotter pin should come out. Hopefully that makes sense. It is a little more difficult that it might sound.
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Old 03-21-13, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bobotech View Post
See, I have had good luck using a pointed hardened punch to drive stubborn pins out.
I understand that, but the OP indicates he has already drilled out the cotter, so a pointed punch would just go into the drilled hole and spread the cotter, especially as the cotter is soft metal. I find it much better when a cotter does not come out initially to intentionally bend the stud back and forth until it breaks off (replacement cotters should always be obtained beforehand when possible). then one can easily place a flat punch into the recess, which keeps the punch in place.

Originally Posted by Patsquatch View Post
...one of the cotter pins had been broken off and I cant get it off to remove the second pedal.
Originally Posted by Fenway View Post

A cotter press will make your life much easier. A suitable clamp can accomplish the same thing if you are lucky.
The OP has broken off the stud and drilled out the cotter, so a press by itself won't work. Even a socket or similar coupled with a clamp is questionable with a badly stuck cotter. It is critical to first reduce and/or break free corrosion and to have the crank properly aligned to the axle.

To the OP: What I posted was based on many years of working on cottered crank bikes when they were much more common. I never failed to remove one. First, drilling should not have expanded the cotter. You might try drilling again with a larger bit.Next I need to know if you understood and followed my instructions. If you can post some clear pics I may be able to determine what the problem is.
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There's no such thing as a routine repair.

Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

Please respect others by taking the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

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Old 03-21-13, 08:59 AM
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Old 03-21-13, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jjvw View Post
Compare a c-clamp to a cotter pin press.

The principle is similar, but the press still has a couple advantages. First, the threading on the bolt is finer, which means greater mechanical advantage when bearing down on the pin. Second, the face of the bolt on the press is concave, which prevents it from wandering off the pin while it is being tightened.
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Old 03-21-13, 09:10 AM
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Some of the pictures are blurry because my camera isn't the greatest. CNY-BIKEMAN I did let it sit for good long while, overnight, and came back the next day and it still wouldn't budge. I followed your directions as well. It is hard to get a good hit due to the cogs being in the way.
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Old 03-21-13, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Patsquatch View Post
OK, that's helpful in many ways:
  • First - the crank is not worth saving, and most likely the BB spindle is shot as well.
  • Secondly, I see no indication that the cotter has been drilled much at all, let alone all the way through. Drilling takes a high quality drill bit, a strong drill and patience - you can't put on excessive pressure, as you'll just ruin the bit and harden the metal you are drilling by overheating.
  • Finally, the Raven (not to be confused with the current Raven Cycles) was a very low end bike, and although sentiment is not measurable I really don't think it's worth your effort. It's not vintage/collectible even in prime condition, and it's not going to be original at this point so it's not really a restoral, and I suspect the cost of parts will be at least double the value of the bike.

My advice is to quit now and find a good used bike (get some help from a knowledgeable friend) if you can't afford new. You'll be on the road sooner and much happier. You fought the good fight for your memories, but it's time to recognize you have reached the limit of time and energy vs. return.
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There's no such thing as a routine repair.

Don't tell me what "should" be - either it is, it isn't, or do something about it.

If you think I'm being blunt take it as a compliment - if I thought you were too weak to handle the truth or a strong opinion I would not bother.

Please respect others by taking the time to post clearly so we can answer quickly. All lowercase and multiple typos makes for a hard read. Thanks!

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Old 03-21-13, 09:55 AM
  #21  
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I know its not worth it financially, and really if it never gets completed I'm ok with it, it gives me something to piddle with in my free time. I have a Fuji roubiaix 3.0. got it last year and have put about 1800 on it so far. this was just something to mess around with. Thanks for the help I really appreciate it. but I'm not giving up! haha
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Old 03-21-13, 12:00 PM
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For cheap parts, check out the link in my tag to see if there's a co-op in your area.

Also, this is why cottered cranks blow chunks.

Originally Posted by bobotech View Post
Half the time I end up cutting the crankset off with a grinding/cutting wheel if the person is just going to upgrade to a modern square taper bb setup.
LOL, I have the 70s on the phone... they say hi, and they want their cranks back
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Old 03-21-13, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
I understand that, but the OP indicates he has already drilled out the cotter, so a pointed punch would just go into the drilled hole and spread the cotter, especially as the cotter is soft metal.
I missed that he had drilled it out in the OP. I agree that it would make things way worse if he attempted to use a pointed punch in a drilled pin.

I didn't realize that the cotters were soft metal. My experience is with hardened steel barrel pins in rifles that are harder than the surrounding metal.

Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
OK, that's helpful in many ways:
  • First - the crank is not worth saving, and most likely the BB spindle is shot as well.
  • Secondly, I see no indication that the cotter has been drilled much at all, let alone all the way through. Drilling takes a high quality drill bit, a strong drill and patience - you can't put on excessive pressure, as you'll just ruin the bit and harden the metal you are drilling by overheating.\
I couldn't agree more. I see people fighting while drilling out metal. You need a really good cobalt drill bit (not "kolbalt") and some good sulfur based cutting oil and go slow with a bit torquey 1/2 inch drill.
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Old 03-21-13, 12:26 PM
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I have had success with drilling a small hole all the way through the center of the cotter, then drilling it again with a slightly larger drill bit, then another larger one, etc, until you have almost all of the cotter drilled away. Then just clamp the other side of the spindle in a vise and twist the crank arm and it should break through whatever is left of the cotter in there and come off.
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Old 03-21-13, 12:37 PM
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I do know what one is but I don't have one. A screw driver perhaps? Drilling out didn't really work
I didn't think so thats why I asked

perhaps you should stick to the computer& taking pictures of things.

and turn the job over to a Bike Shops Mechanic.

A: The Drift Punch is squared off across the tip.. It is relatively harder steel, than a nail or screwdriver,
[but not as hard as a Wrench]

The other basic part of tooling up for the job, would be a Bench-Vise..

Once you have the crank arm supported by something solid, the force of the hammer blows
on the end of the Drift punch is directed at the end of the F'd up cotter pin.

and the rest of the crank arm wont move because it sits over the Bench vise
and the heavy Jaws , and the heavy bench wont Move,
you leave the vise gap just big enough for the head end of the tapered cotter to fall out.

The cotter press is the more civilized tool IF you owned one of those You Might
Have been able to ReUse the original Cotter..

best wishes and good luck ..
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