Rosa7

Hi,

Sorry this must be a very basic question, but I'm wondering if a 43cm junior bike from the nineties with 650c tires would be able to take 650b wheels.

Thank you.

dddd

No.

Trying to get fatter tires on there, you'd want smaller rims not larger. 650B rims are bigger.

fietsbob

650, A is 590; B is 584; C is 571 ie.. tire-bead seat diam.
ref: Sutherlands..

Rosa7

Hi dddd & Fietsbob,

Thank you for the responses, though I'm such a newbie with all this that I'm not sure I understood. I am extremely short and am considering getting either a junior Miyata Pavea 55 that has 650c wheels or a Terry Despatch or Symmetry which has a 24" in front and a 700c in back. If I wanted too, either with a switch of tires, or switch of rims, or rims and breaks, be able to change any of those three wheels and tires so that I could have a 650b or a different but fatter tire?

Actually, neither bike is ideal, because even with a 43cm frame junior triathlon like the Pavea or a 44cm Terry Despatch, the standover is a stretch, but I don't think ideal will happen for me within my budget. Any other ideas for someone 4'8" who wants a good road bike that could do some touring?

Thank you.

HillRider

I know Surly sells it's touring bike, the "Long Haul Trucker" (aka LHT) with frame sizes as small as 42 cm and with 26" (ISO 559) wheels which gives a standover height of 70.3 cm or 27.6". You can get as small as 26x1.25" slick tires or go up significantly in tire size for use on rougher trails. This size wheel is the most common MTB size so wheel and tire choices are huge.

mulveyr 

650C would be awful for touring - your only options are very narrow, high-pressure tires. ( There are 28mm 650C tires, but my experience is that they do not generally fit inside typical 650C frames, which tend to have very little clearance for tires larger than 25mm ).

As HillRider mentioned, the 43cm LHT is an option. My wife has the 50cm LHT, and is very pleased with it. Another option is the touring bike we got for my son - a 43cm BikesDirect Windsor Tourist: https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/tourist.htm He was 4'8 when we first bought it, and it fit him just right. It's about half the price of the LHT, and the components and construction are just fine. It comes only partially assembled though, so if you're not familar with bike mechanics you'd probably want your local bike shop to finish building and adjust it.

FastJake

+2 Surly Long Haul Trucker with 26" wheels would be a good choice. That Bikes Direct Windsor looks good as well.

I usually advise people to seek used bikes to save money but that probably isn't an option for you. I don't think I've ever personally seen a touring bike that would fit a 4'8" person.

Rosa7

Thank you mulveyr and all. I am very happy to have the link for DirectBikes.Com and to know about the Windsor Tourist, but even it has standover of 18.5". My inseam is 25". I'm wondering if Mulveyr's son had to lean his bike to the side to dismount when he was 4'8" since girls of the same height usually have longer legs. In any case, I think FastJake is correct that with a 25" inseam, there isn't a touring bike that will fit me unless I can find an old 42cm Terry Despatch or Symmetry, but even those have a stand-over of 26.5. These older Terry bikes had Tange 1 frames and eyelets, with a 24" wheel in the front and 27" in the back.

In my exceptional case in which I have to compromise somewhere, I'm wondering how important is it have full clearance over the top tube. If the rest of the geometry is pretty good.

FastJake

Personally I have never worried about standover, except on a mountain bike. I'm 5'9" and have ridden bikes as large as 63cm. Of course they didn't fit me well, but I never had trouble riding them (I can't even come close to putting both feet down on a 63cm.) A couple of my current bikes have zero standover clearance. Since I only ever put one foot down when stopping it has never been an issue for me.

As far as crashing is concerned, when you crash you will may hit the stem/steerer tube anyway and I see no reason why a higher top tube is more dangerous.

HillRider

The published standover height on the smallest (43cm) Windsor Tourist is 28.5" according to their website so the 42cm LHT is significantly lower.

BTW, is the 25" inseam you claim taken from your pants size or a true "cycling" inseam, which is quite a bit different? A cycling inseam is measured by standing with your back against a wall and your feet about 10-12" apart in stocking feet. Take a moderately thick book and place it between your legs and force the spine firmly (firm, not hard) up against your crotch and against the wall behind you. Be sure the book's spine is level and mark where the top of the book hits the wall. The distance from that mark to the floor is your cycling inseam and should be significantly longer than your pant's inseam. For example, I wear a 30" pants inseam but my cycling inseam is 33-1/8".

sreten

Hi,

AFAIK its impossible to build a bike with nice geometry for a 4'8"
person with 700c wheels (standard racing wheel size) 622mm rims.

You should be looking at bikes with 26" (standard MTB wheel size)
559mm rims for a lot more choice and cheaper, nearly every style
of bike can be found with these wheels and lots of good tyre choices.

The common understanding of a road bike and a touring bike are
very different. Perhaps you need a 26" wheel hybrid, usually comes
with straight bars, MTB gearing, mudguards and a rear rack.

For small look for a very short fronttube and a sloping toptube.

Cheap ones are heavy, not good for the small / lightweight.

rgds, sreten.

A nice used no suspension MTB fitted with road tyres, fenders and
a rack can make a great all round bike, with possibly a new saddle.

djb

Hillrider, very good point clarifying inseam and how to do it. I would add that wearing a bicycling shoe or any kind of shoe is always a given, so this should be taken into account as well (although as the op states, given his or her height, there very well always be a compromise in this area.
Becoming more experienced and comfortable on a bike will also help with dealing with living with a frame that most likely will be iffy for standover.

Whatever you get, its just as critical for you at 4'8" or me at 5 10 to have proper seat to bars distance. So stem choice, or even bar choice is super important for your riding comfort.

HillRider

I've always read that the cycling inseam is measured in bare (or stocking) feet and I suppose the various saddle height formulas take this into account. As to standover clearance, certainly shoe thickness will have a beneficial effect and measuring using the shoes you will ride in will give a better indication.

Rosa7

Yes, I did my best to measure with a book, straight against the wall, just as you describe. I tried several times, and though it sometimes varied a half inch one way or the other, the most frequent, and I think the most accurate measurement was . . . yes, shockingly, 25"! Either I did something quite horrific in a past life to bring the gods to such vengeance or the stork lost his way en route to the Shire. Well, I guess it could have been worse if I had been a boy baby.

HillRider

Hmmm, that does present a bit of a problem. Indeed, it's good you aren't a man. The lowest standover height I've been able to find is a bit over 27" so maybe tall shoes are called for.

There are road bikes intended for older children that use 24" wheels but are otherwise scaled down road bikes with drop bars, brifters, etc. I've seen them occasionally and they look quite good. I believe Jamis sells one but there may be others. That's a possibility.

Rosa7

With some of the feedback I've received, I think I'm going to worry more about other geometry points than standover. I have not spent regular time on a bike in decades, but I practically lived on a Peugeot with 24" or 26" wheels when I was in university. I'm not so affraid of a too-high standover. Since making inquiries here, I've been looking for a 40cm Terry Despatch or Symmetry which has a 24" front wheel and a 27" back wheel with a standover of 26.5, but I haven't found one. I have also been looking for a tiny Novara Randonee from the late 90s and any used, small Soma Buena Vista or LHT - all with no luck. I had definitely wanted a 700c, grown-up-sized bike, but after some education from some many nice folks here, I think I would prefer 650bs. I think I might have actually found a very nice 44.5 Symmetry that has very similar measurements on everything else to the 40.6, except for the seat post and a 27.5" or 28" standover. I wanted to get sweepback, cruiser or mountain bike handle bars anyway, so I'm wondering if the geometry might be okay with that arrangement. I don't think my leg reach is so bad on the old 19" girls bike that I currently have, so my knees might still be okay. What I'm wondering now, is how complicated it would be to change that 27" or 700c back tire to a 650b? Maybe that's not worth it. I might keep on looking for a 40cm or 42cm or finally decide to try to get someone to convert a MTB like the Schwinn Paramount 70 for me. I just thought that would be too expensive.

DJB, if you come across something in your garage or elsewhere, I'd be happy to hear about it. I just noticed that you aren't far from my location.

djb

Rosa, my wife is about 5'1" and we had borrowed a "junior" drop bar bike from friends to see if it would work. It had 650 wheels (dont know which ones, letter wise) so the standover was ok, but the reach from seat to shifter hoods was too long, plus the bars were lower than the seat (a racing position) so it wasnt comfortable for my wife. I came close to putting diff stuff on it to help with this, a shorter and angled up handlebar stem, a diff set of bars that had less distance from front of bar to the curved part (again, to bring hands closer to seat) but in the end, we found an XS new bike that fit her better, so this 650 bike went back to the friends.

I believe the owners of the bike do want to sell it, but in your case, being 3 inches shorter than my wife means that the drop bar setup would not be practical "seat to bar" distance wise--yes you could change the whole setup to a riser bar that curves back a bit (as opposed to a straight mtn bar) but you would have to put new shifters and brake levers on too, so even though I have no idea what the bike is being sold for (if its still for sale that is, I dont know)
we are talking new bars, shifters, brake levers (bike has road brakes, so could be an issue with mtn bike style brake levers, Im not familiar with this) so all in all, extra money to spend.....

the other issue is that a bike like a junior racer will probably be limited to narrow tires, this 650 bike had 25mm tires on it, and probably couldnt even take 28mm tires....at least a bike like a Surly LHT with the 26in wheels can take all sorts of diff tire sizes.
Also, 650 tires are not easy to find, although for tubes a 26x1" tube will work fine in a 650 tire of 25mm.

dilemma isnt it? I guess if you want I could ask about the 650 bike, find out about the standover height at least (and maybe an idea about how much they want to sell it for)

Rosa7

Thank you djb. Actually, I think I'm four or five inches shorter than your wife. Yes, you're right, this is a dilemma, much more so than I ever imagined.

I'll keep on looking, but if you get a chance to ask your friend the price and standover of the bike, do let me know.

sreten

Hi,

I can't understand why you are not taking the easy route.

559mm rim size wheels have loads more and better tyre choices than 650B :
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-26-...-650b-dept348/
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-26-...d-dept197_pg1/

To fit 650B tyres to a a 27" or 700C bike you would need new wheels.
(Or rims and spokes, the brakes may or may not fit well.)

MTB wheels are nominally 26", same as 650B, but can end
up smaller or larger depending on what sized tyres are fitted.

MTB frames with the sloping toptube should suit you to a tee.
They should have 2" more standover clearance than the 1"
that is standard for road bikes (though it seems you don't
want a road bike - in the terms that is accepted to mean).

You should be looking for small high quality solid MTB frame with
a short front-tube - its the best indicator of size for quality frames.
Downsloping top-tube, and mounting points for practical stuff.

A very short bar extension would be good, for MTB bars,
as would be shorter than standard 170mm length cranks.

Pick tyres carefully to suit what you want.

rgds, sreten.

Here is a nice road bike for the smaller person :
https://www.islabikes.com/us/bike_pages/luath26.html

Rosa7

Yes, I've been thinking that I could start a new fad of platform sneakers with biking cleats. Actually, I'm still quite a ways from needing cleats.

I found a junior online yesterday. It's a 36cm Echelon girl's bike with 24" stepthrough, with 26" wheels, but I don't think it has eyelets. I thought this might be a viable option for me if it is a good frame, so I looked up "Echelon," apparently some people get a bit excited about Echelon's because they were made by a Japanes family of craftsment that own Cheribum bikes. However, this bike doesn't look like good quality to me, not that I know much. It looks like the seat tube is lugged but not the head tube, and it looks like the cables are connected to the top tube with tie wraps rather than braze-ons. I'm guessing it is as low-end as Cheribum ever made, either because it's a little girl's bike or because it was made for a company in California that imported cheap Cheribum bikes. I spoke to the owner, and she said that there is a decale on the bike that indicates that it is made of chromoly. She was Asian and said that this bike was from Japan. I can't see it very well, but the head badge looks like it might have the same "C" as the headbadge for the Cheribum bikes, though the emblem on the front forks is different. In any case, even if it is a good option for me, I think I might have difficulty convincing the owner to do a distance sale, even through PayPal.

Rosa7

Thank you for the clarification, sreten. It's just that I'm in the process of learning a lot here and may still be confused in my references to tires. I think I got it that 650c tires would not be good for me if I would like to start doing some short touring with patient friends on touring bikes. Now I think I have got it that I might be better off with 26" because of size, availablity, and perhaps even purpose. I don't have any reason to want 650c or b except for my height issue and that I thought a 650b was the option for a fatter, smooth tire. Now, I think I understand that I can get that with a 26" as well, and with less problems.

So I think you are recommending a mountain bike conversion, even over a Terry-style geometry bike of 24" front and 700c bike and a shorter top tube so the reach is not as far. I appreciate the information on how to look for a good mtb bike/frame with a slanting top tube and a shorter head tube. Would such a bike be steel, chromo, or aluminum, or any possibility of the three? I know even less about mtb and hybrid bikes than road and touring bikes. Thanks again.

himespau 

Best of luck. I think converting a small hardtail mountain bike might be your best bet. You could use a frame of any material you liked. Best of all, if you wanted swept back bars, it might already have the brake and shifter levers to do that. You'd just want to switch over to some thinner smoother tires and you'd be good to go. Plus, there are often lots of used mountain bikes (especially ones from the early 90's or thereabouts with no suspension - and you don't want suspension) on Craigslist or whatever sale site you like to use.

Rosa7

Thank you, that's helpful. I would like swept back handle bars most. Do you have any recommendations for a chromoly mountain bike, preferably lugged, that could be decked out for road trouring, racks and all. I love your caption for punctuation.

sreten

Hi,

Nothing against the Terry bike, it fixes the fundamental problem
that for a very short person with 700C wheels there would be no
front-tube at all for the right handlebar height and you would
still get problems with the front wheel clipping your toes.

But its an esoteric solution that allows a big rear wheel, its
expensive, new or used, and in the end not cost effective.

It helps if you are precise about want you want from a bike.
And its very confusing to understand all the issues involved.

e.g. take my very budget road bike (I updated the poor parts).

https://www.tesco.com/direct/vertigo-...x/211-7006.prd



Allegedly 5'6" to 5'10" and I'm 5'8". Standover is 1" as recommended
for a road bike but that means the front is high as can be seen from
the length of the front tube combined with the wheel sizes.
(The front of 1" standover flat toptube would be lower, and
that would necessitate a shorter front tube, near minimum. )

Its not good racing geometry but its hardly a racing bike. One reason
I chose it (along with price) is being an older duffer I wanted the front
to be high and I flipped the bar extension and chopped and flipped the
bars into bullhorn types to make it more comfortable for me. Still really
for its claimed size, the effective top-tube length is somewhat long.
(Which goes with the front-tube length indicating the effective
size the most, taking into account the size of the fitted wheels.)

I can't really advise on MTB frames. Nice ones come in all flavours,
but just like road bikes a nice steel frame will always be a nice frame.
Chromo/moly is just a variant of steel and not that great compared
to good tubing, alloy will always be tainted with the fact it can only
get worse with age, whilst steel frames don't unless hammered.

As ever though go for good fit, try to find a used 26" / 559mm
rim junior bike with the smaller parts, they should all help.


rgds, sreten.

26" MTB wheel size is by far the most common wheel size,
across every type bike, especially high value cheaper ones.

himespau 

Sorry, I can't advise you on which brands might be good ones. Ones made in the late 80's/early 90's often had several braze-ons that could be used to attach fenders/racks. I've taken an old one (turned out to be heavier and lower quality that I could have found if I'd waited longer, but I'm tall and most mountain bikes aren't big enough to do it, so I have the opposite problem of you) and put 1.25" slick tires, drop bars, fenders, and brakes on and turned it into a super heavy duty commuter/tourer. Finding something that will fit you at a price you can live with is the first step. Other stuff can be changed.