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Rear D wiggles 1/8" despite being torqued correctly

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Rear D wiggles 1/8" despite being torqued correctly

Old 07-03-13, 04:55 PM
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I_like_cereal
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Rear D wiggles 1/8" despite being torqued correctly

ShiamNO Sora 9 speed rear d on a Cinelli dropout with friction shifters.

Bolt is tight but there is at least 1/8" of wiggle.

The wiggle (I assume) ends ups causing a click, like the chain is not in gear, through the entire range. Only occurs when the bike is weighted or the chain is stressed.

I am assuming correctly?
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Old 07-03-13, 05:00 PM
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they're not perfect.. You could add shim washers.. to lessen that..

the Top pulley has sideways motion to let the chain stay in the cog .. 'Centeron'
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Old 07-03-13, 05:03 PM
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I should be clearer. In a rush apologies.

The wiggle is at the dropout.
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Old 07-03-13, 05:11 PM
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The RD upper body shifts sideways on the bolt that holds the RD on the frame?
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Old 07-03-13, 05:58 PM
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The bolt that connects the RD to the dropout is tight. There is play between the drop out and the rd at that connection. it feels real loose even though I loosened and retightened it. It almost looks like there is a washer missing or something has happened to make the drop out to RD bolt creep away from the dropout. Even though everything is tight. No wrecks, spills or slides.
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Old 07-03-13, 06:33 PM
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Did you get past the B-screw? Loosen the bolt, then rotate the RD clockwise rear ward and high, tighten the bolt and then release. Did you do that? Is there still 1/8th inch play between RD and dropout? Can you take a picture and show us where the play is located?
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Old 07-03-13, 09:53 PM
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If there is an 1/8" of "end play" in the upper mount then I'd be really surprised. If there's the same amount of play as seem at the cages lower end then this is common. The play at the cage lower end is a collection of all the pivots and slop built/worn in the complete der.

The Op says this results in a click. Can this be duplicated on the stand (applying the brake while turning the crank over)? can actual movement be seen during this. can contact or chain ride up on cog teeth be noticed? Have you determined that the shift lever isn't moving slightly under frame flex?

One test that can be interesting to do is to install a cable through only the der cable adjuster to the anchor bolt. Yes, completely bypassing the frame and shift lever. Then using the cable adjuster set the upper pulley to be under a cog. then ride the bike. This way any shift lever or frame flex involvement is removed. See what happens. Andy.
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Old 07-04-13, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by I_like_cereal View Post
Only occurs when the bike is weighted or the chain is stressed.
That sounds odd, because the RD has no information about chain tension at its disposal to respond to; it only sees the tension it makes on the slack side.

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
If there is an 1/8" of "end play" in the upper mount then I'd be really surprised.
I'm pretty sure OP is referring to sideways play at the bottom of the cage. As you know, this is totally normal, and I bet something else is causing the annoying symptom s/he describes.

I_like_cereal, this amount of derailer slop almost certainly wouldn't cause a drama on 9s or 10s indexed systems, and you're friction shifting.

If the chain isn't in gear properly, it's your fault - that's your job if you're friction shifting! Although, depending on the levers you're using, that could be tricky with 9s and a Shimano RD, which uses very short cable pull.

If you're using indexed Shimano levers switched to friction, the tiny indents probably aren't helping.

That said, I've never been happy with upper pivot slop on Shimano and Campy derailers, even from new. A couple of times I've popped off the retaining circlip and modified a washer to fit under it and take up the slack, worked a treat (both Shimano and Campy). It doesn't seem to matter if the pivot ends up a little bit stiff; I think you'd only notice it if you tried to shift most of the cassette at once; less of an issue with closer ratios.

Last edited by Kimmo; 07-04-13 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 07-04-13, 06:35 AM
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"That sounds odd, because the RD has no information about chain tension at its disposal to respond to; it only sees the tension it makes on the slack side." Kimmo

Actually the rear der does have a way to 'know" chain tension. As my experiment could show. With increased chain tension comes increased frame flex. Since the gear cable does not travel along the center of the frame tubes it will be tugged at or relaxed by this frame flex. And as the cable goes so does the der. Just ask any one who rode Vitus or Alan Alu frames BITD. Those bikes auto shifted often on hard efforts or hill climbing out of the saddle. Indexing helped a lot because the constant tugging on the cable would not move the shift lever. I devised my experiment (of attaching the gear cable between the der's adjuster and anchor bolt) to remove the frame flex from the system. I had a number of customers who didn't want to believe that their frame was causing their gear problems. They found our differently after riding their bike with my cable hook up. Andy.
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Old 07-04-13, 08:43 AM
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you can always, just upgrade the RD from Sora level..
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Old 07-04-13, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by I_like_cereal View Post
The bolt that connects the RD to the dropout is tight. There is play between the drop out and the rd at that connection. it feels real loose even though I loosened and retightened it. It almost looks like there is a washer missing or something has happened to make the drop out to RD bolt creep away from the dropout. Even though everything is tight. No wrecks, spills or slides.
Is it a lateral play, like rear derailleur is sliding in the hanger bolt back and forth, or is the movement top to bottom, like the hanger bolt is too small in diameter? The Sora derailleur does have a washer behind the head of the hanger bolt and a clip on the back that holds the hanger bolt and spring in the derailleur.

Last edited by onespeedbiker; 07-04-13 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 07-04-13, 11:41 AM
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Are you talking about rotation around the bolt on the RD hanger on the frame?
THAT IS NORMAL!
Sideways movement (perpendicular to the longitudinal plane of the bike and wheel etc) is NOT normal.

The whole RD has to move back and forth while shifting, and B-screw just changes the relation of the movement at hanger with the actual pivot point of the cage on RD.

The only "stiff" RD's that I come to think of is the cheap ones that bolt onto the wheel axle.
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Old 07-04-13, 08:23 PM
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I know that this is really hard to envision.

However, look at the read d of your bike. The bolt that attaches the Rear D to the hanger, this is where the play is. The play is not front to rear, the play is side to side. The upper and lower jockey wheels/cages/bolts are fine.

I took the rear d off to look for something loose, the retaining clip, a loose fitting, something. Nothing was loose. I reinstalled and it still wiggled. I went out and purchased an "E" clip. Basically it is a very thin piece of metal that is used to retain clips or pins. I snapped this in and it seems to have removed the play. I am replacing the cable tomorrow as well.

The click happens at all phases of the chain and no manner or degree of trimming gets rid of it. I have not been able to reproduce it on a stand. It occurs only when the bike is under load and it is that noticeable click of being slightly out of gear, but not enough to cause the chain to jump. I have been riding friction for over three years.

The cassette is 9, the chain is 9, the rear d is 9, the frame is a Cliff Shrubb Reynolds 500 or 600 series. All have been working flawlessly since I replaced the rear d a year ago. This is a new thing. It originally started to click about 45 days ago. I cleaned the chain on the bike and it went away. The click came back about a week ago. Slightly at first and it has been getting progressively louder ever since. It seems to have settled where it is, but I worry that this will strip the hanger or blow the rear d.

Thanks for indulging this odd question.
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Old 07-05-13, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by I_like_cereal View Post
I know that this is really hard to envision.

However, look at the read d of your bike. The bolt that attaches the Rear D to the hanger, this is where the play is. The play is not front to rear, the play is side to side. The upper and lower jockey wheels/cages/bolts are fine.
I didn't find it hard to envision at all, I was correct. I guessed you were measuring the amount of movement happening at the pivot bolt at the bottom of the derailer, not that the cage was loose.

I went out and purchased an "E" clip. Basically it is a very thin piece of metal that is used to retain clips or pins. I snapped this in and it seems to have removed the play.
There you go, just what I was saying.

Last edited by Kimmo; 07-05-13 at 06:08 AM.
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Old 07-05-13, 07:51 AM
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You still haven't adequately described where the wiggle is. Is it between the hangar and the hangar bolt (B-axle)? Or is it between the DR body and the B-axle? Yoou probably ought to get this figured out before you end up doing damage to the hangar. There's a bike shop on nearly every corner here in Portland. Stop by and have them give it a look-see. Or have a riding buddy who knows what he's looking at give it a look to see if it's normal. Or if I'm on your commute route a quick stop at my place will provide the answer.
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Old 07-08-13, 09:47 AM
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The lateral wiggle is at the b-axle. The click I have not yet found.

So this weekend I replaced the shift cable, I replaced the bolts for my Sachs friction shifters (the old ones I could not snug up enough) and added and "e clip" to the b-axle.

Got the chain dialed in and landing in the right spot. Still could not produce the click on the stand. Took it to work this morning and the click is worse.

The e clip took up some of the lateral wiggle on the b-axle.

I know at this point that the click is either coming from the b-axle's lateral wiggle or one of the jockey wheels. Both wheels feel fine in there housing. The bottom one has no discernible lateral movement the top one has some lateral movement. All teeth appear fine.

Next step will be to remove the jockey wheels and check them for contaminants or bad parts. Failing that it appears the rear d is shot.

Any other thoughts?
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Old 07-08-13, 09:26 PM
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My thought is that contaminated pulley wheels won't be the cause of your clicks. Index systems need some slop to allow for wear/tolerances. Andy.
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Old 07-09-13, 09:30 AM
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I think, thanks to you and my five year old, that I have maybe found the solution.

I think, 95% sure, that it might be a frozen or stiff link. somewhere near the master link on the Sram 9 Speed chain.

I checked the alignment between the chain, rear d and cassette. All are in line through the entire range. I cannot get the click to happen on the bench so the head scratcher is why is the click only under load?

I cleaned the chain and pulleys this morning and relubed them before my ride.

Last night I had my five year old turn the crank slowly while I looked at the chain. Having never seen a frozen/stiff link before I am not sure I knew what to look for. I just noticed that one link seemed to not be smooth or not as smooth as the others coming around the upper pulley. I biked in this morning and checked the chain when it clicked, or tried to, and really could not tell anything. The only thing that I noticed is that while I was in 28 the less frequent the click and while I was in 14/12 the more frequent the click.

All my pulleys are tight and nothing appears loose.

Frozen/stiff link? Thoughts?

Again thanks for the knowledge.
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Old 07-09-13, 10:48 AM
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Until I read that last post, I was going to reply to this one, like
Originally Posted by I_like_cereal View Post
I know at this point that the click is either coming from the b-axle's lateral wiggle or one of the jockey wheels.
Hah! Why so sure?

Cassette lockring tight?
Pedals?
What kind of crank and BB? Is everything there tight?

Chainrings not worn?
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Old 07-09-13, 05:14 PM
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Lock ring - tight
SRam apex bb - tight
Pedals Look Keo - Tight
Chainrings - about 3000 miles no shark teeth or significant wear

I have bladed spokes and can hear the click through the spokes. It is not coming from the bb, cassette, or pedals. I am familiar with sounds from these as I have had them die on me before.
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Old 07-09-13, 09:51 PM
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This discovery, possible tight links, is pretty basic assessment. When taking in a bike for possible service we slightly push the rear der cage forward making the chain droop a touch. Then pedal the bike and see how the chain runs through the cage and rest of the system. It is enlightening sometimes what reducing the pressures will reveal. Andy.
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