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10sp Cassette doesn't like Downshifting to 4th Sprocket

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10sp Cassette doesn't like Downshifting to 4th Sprocket

Old 07-09-13, 10:44 AM
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agmetal
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10sp Cassette doesn't like Downshifting to 4th Sprocket

I have a Bianchi Volpe that I just picked up about 5 weeks ago, new. It has Shimano Tiagra brifters, and a 10x3 gearing setup. The last week or so, I've noticed that it's a little iffy about downshifting to the 4th cog (I usually use that as my level ground gear with the big chainwheel, and for starting from a stop with the middle chainwheel). When I go higher than that, it doesn't always downshift immediately to the 4th cog, but that's the only spot where this is an issue. Sometimes, it'll take several seconds, and then do the shift rather noisily.

Is it a safe bet that this is something that should be able to be fixed by just using the indexing barrel adjusters, or am I looking at a bigger issue that should be taken to the shop?
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Old 07-09-13, 11:04 AM
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This is a common annoyance with Shimano 10 speed drivetrains- about one shift in seven, there will be a hesitation when shifting mid cluster into an 'easier' gear (the next largest one on the cluster). Putting slight pressure on the shift lever (not as much as a next click) will result in a smooth transition to the proper gear. This does not seem to be something that can be adjusted away through derailleur hanger/cable tension settings since it happens when the hanger is perfect and increasing cable tension causes more noise or too-quick upshifts in the rest of the cluster.

I'd give a quarter turn on the adjuster and see if it helps, but in my experience you'll still have it happen from time to time even when everything is adjusted correctly. Doesn't seem to be a similar problem with 9 speed drive trains.
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Old 07-10-13, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
This is a common annoyance with Shimano 10 speed drivetrains- about one shift in seven, there will be a hesitation when shifting mid cluster into an 'easier' gear (the next largest one on the cluster). Putting slight pressure on the shift lever (not as much as a next click) will result in a smooth transition to the proper gear. This does not seem to be something that can be adjusted away through derailleur hanger/cable tension settings since it happens when the hanger is perfect and increasing cable tension causes more noise or too-quick upshifts in the rest of the cluster.

I'd give a quarter turn on the adjuster and see if it helps, but in my experience you'll still have it happen from time to time even when everything is adjusted correctly. Doesn't seem to be a similar problem with 9 speed drive trains.
Common?? I've never heard or experienced that so don't buy it. If that's true then nobody would race on Shimano 10-speed drivetrain. No one I know experienced that symtom when it's setup properly. In most case, it's improper RD adjustment or that it's so slightly bent that's hard to see with the naked eye.
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Old 07-10-13, 06:37 AM
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Shimano 10s bikes are a pain because of the short cable pull; the tiny signal is easily drowned out.

Damn shifters whisper to the derailers.
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Old 07-10-13, 08:40 AM
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Common?? I've never heard or experienced that so don't buy it. If that's true then nobody would race on Shimano 10-speed drivetrain. No one I know experienced that symtom when it's setup properly. In most case, it's improper RD adjustment or that it's so slightly bent that's hard to see with the naked eye.
Sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree, then. It's out there and it happens, but is by no means a constant issue (note my estimate of one shift in seven, always mid cluster and always to the next larger cog). Not a missed shift, but a slow one and as accurately described by the OP. Happens more often with 105 and Ultegra than D-A.

My statement is not based on a small sampling.
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Old 07-11-13, 11:21 PM
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Since it's only 5 weeks old- definitely take it back to the shop. With regard to (Shimano) 10sp stuff- my experience is that they work at least as well as their lesser speed brethren. A bit more finicky perhaps to cable tension, but a good setup takes care of that issue.
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Old 07-12-13, 02:51 AM
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Since it is new I would just bring it back to the shop and have them tweak it. Don't try it yourself unless you've done these types of adjustments before as you'll only make it worse. I'm not trying to discourage you from doing your own work, just don't experiment on a new bike, work on that beater bike first.
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Old 07-12-13, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by reddog3 View Post
With regard to (Shimano) 10sp stuff- my experience is that they work at least as well as their lesser speed brethren.
Your experience differs with mine, and also the entire concept of signal to noise.

What sort of cables and housing do you use?
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Old 07-12-13, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by reddog3 View Post
Since it's only 5 weeks old- definitely take it back to the shop. With regard to (Shimano) 10sp stuff- my experience is that they work at least as well as their lesser speed brethren. A bit more finicky perhaps to cable tension, but a good setup takes care of that issue.
Originally Posted by zacster View Post
Since it is new I would just bring it back to the shop and have them tweak it. Don't try it yourself unless you've done these types of adjustments before as you'll only make it worse. I'm not trying to discourage you from doing your own work, just don't experiment on a new bike, work on that beater bike first.
I do quite a lot of work on my own bike(s), even going as far as overhauling a coaster brake hub. I'm just not as familiar with more modern stuff like brifters. I was able to solve the issue satisfactorily by tweaking the adjusters.
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Old 07-12-13, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
This is a common annoyance with Shimano 10 speed drivetrains- about one shift in seven, there will be a hesitation when shifting mid cluster into an 'easier' gear (the next largest one on the cluster). Putting slight pressure on the shift lever (not as much as a next click) will result in a smooth transition to the proper gear. This does not seem to be something that can be adjusted away through derailleur hanger/cable tension settings since it happens when the hanger is perfect and increasing cable tension causes more noise or too-quick upshifts in the rest of the cluster.

I'd give a quarter turn on the adjuster and see if it helps, but in my experience you'll still have it happen from time to time even when everything is adjusted correctly. Doesn't seem to be a similar problem with 9 speed drive trains.
Just to add to the sample size, this is an exact description of what my bike does, but maybe closer to 1 in 10. 2010 Specialized Roubaix 105-5600. Still happens with 3 different cassettes, different chains, different cranks.
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Old 07-12-13, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by droppedandlost View Post
Just to add to the sample size, this is an exact description of what my bike does, but maybe closer to 1 in 10. 2010 Specialized Roubaix 105-5600. Still happens with 3 different cassettes, different chains, different cranks.
Try doing a hanger alignment then. I did my bike and it made a huge difference in the shifting and in making it silent.
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Old 07-12-13, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
This is a common annoyance with Shimano 10 speed drivetrains- about one shift in seven, there will be a hesitation when shifting mid cluster into an 'easier' gear (the next largest one on the cluster). Putting slight pressure on the shift lever (not as much as a next click) will result in a smooth transition to the proper gear. This does not seem to be something that can be adjusted away through derailleur hanger/cable tension settings since it happens when the hanger is perfect and increasing cable tension causes more noise or too-quick upshifts in the rest of the cluster.

I'd give a quarter turn on the adjuster and see if it helps, but in my experience you'll still have it happen from time to time even when everything is adjusted correctly. Doesn't seem to be a similar problem with 9 speed drive trains.
Common? That's new to me. Much more common are hangers that aren't aligned properly and mechanics that can't install cables/housing properly or set up derailleurs. I'd look towards the hanger, and if that doesn't fix it they cause could be a cable that is kinked inside the housing, or housing liner that is not opened up properly on the ends.
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Old 07-13-13, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
Please don't call them "brifters", that just sounds stupid. Really.
A portmanteau is a perfectly acceptable way to avoid having to say something ridiculously clunky like 'dual-control levers' or whatever.

To my mind, it sounds far more stupid to refer to people as 'that' rather than 'who'. People who talk like that sound like they regard everyone else as objects.
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Old 07-13-13, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
A portmanteau is a perfectly acceptable way to avoid having to say something ridiculously clunky like 'dual-control levers' or whatever.

To my mind, it sounds far more stupid to refer to people as 'that' rather than 'who'. People who talk like that sound like they regard everyone else as objects.
They're normally referred to as "shifters". Not very clunky, you have to admit. And to answer your grammar police comment, I was referring to act of calling shifters "brifters" being stupid, not that the individual using the unfortunate term is actually stupid.
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Old 07-13-13, 01:37 PM
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A hesitation in shifting to the 4th cog is not uncommon. I have it happening on many bikes that I have owned and it persists no matter how much tuning I do with the shifting system. I am not an Engineer but I have a feeling it is because the derailleur spring is at its most relaxed at mid cogset. That plus the fact that unlike Campy; Shimano has done some really stupid stuff with their shifting systems like lightening up on the derailleur springs while at the same time throwing more cogs onto the freehub and making cable routings a real nightmare.

Many top level race mechanics I know tell me they would much rather have an 8-Speed STI or Ergo power setup than any of the fancy-dancy 10 or 11-Speed setups that are out here today.
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Old 07-13-13, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
They're normally referred to as "shifters". Not very clunky, you have to admit.
And I often refer to them as such when there's no chance of ambiguity. But the hassle of being mistaken when there is ambiguity totally warrants the term. Why do you think it sounds stupid? Do you disapprove of portmanteaus in general, or just this one? Are you even aware that's a legitimate category of word?

Originally Posted by Roadie1 View Post
I am not an Engineer but I have a feeling it is because the derailleur spring is at its most relaxed at mid cogset.
I think you'll find it's at its most relaxed when sitting against the high limit screw. IME it's more common to have issues at the end of the cassette than the middle, at least with unworn stuff.

Many top level race mechanics I know tell me they would much rather have an 8-Speed STI or Ergo power setup than any of the fancy-dancy 10 or 11-Speed setups that are out here today.
Fair enough too. But since the problem is insufficient cable pull, Shimano is by far the worst. I found tuning C10 can be a bit of a hassle but usually not too bad, a bit easier than S9. S9 shifted via Shiftmate and 9s Ergos is good and robust IME.

The narrower chain shifts nicer across smaller cog spacing, as long as the derailleur is actuated accurately enough; Di2 is pants-creamingly sweet. IME SRAM 10s works great until the derailer gets sloppy.
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Old 07-13-13, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
And I often refer to them as such when there's no chance of ambiguity. But the hassle of being mistaken when there is ambiguity totally warrants the term. Why do you think it sounds stupid? Do you disapprove of portmanteaus in general, or just this one? Are you even aware that's a legitimate category of word?



I think you'll find it's at its most relaxed when sitting against the high limit screw. IME it's more common to have issues at the end of the cassette than the middle, at least with unworn stuff.



Fair enough too. But since the problem is insufficient cable pull, Shimano is by far the worst. I found tuning C10 can be a bit of a hassle but usually not too bad, a bit easier than S9. S9 shifted via Shiftmate and 9s Ergos is good and robust IME.

The narrower chain shifts nicer across smaller cog spacing, as long as the derailleur is actuated accurately enough; Di2 is pants-creamingly sweet. IME SRAM 10s works great until the derailer gets sloppy.

Oh damn, you got me there...i'm just a poor bike mechanic w/ half a brain. Yes, i know what it means and i am totally fine w/ words like spork, or spanglish. I (and every other pro mechanic i've ever know or worked with) just happen to think that 'brifter' sounds dumb. It's a word that forum users have taken to because they think there's a need for it. If it makes me a snob then so be it, but that's the way it's thought of by pro mechanics.
So go ahead and take those I'm-the-one-with-superior-knowledge-of-the-english-language jabs, and i'll continue being amused and annoyed by guys like you using the 'b' word.

On another note, i completely agree w/ the next comments you've made about Shimano and SRAM...spot on.
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Old 07-13-13, 11:49 PM
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It just seems a bit disproportionate to hate it so much you have to diss the term in your tag; it serves a purpose and I don't see why it sounds so silly you have to tell people every time you say anything.

I can think of worthier candidates for pet hate. And dude, ease up on the flame-iness, we're more easygoing than that here. If you review my words I think you'll find you're projecting a bit.
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Old 07-14-13, 06:40 PM
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I would check the cable tension first just to rule that out, but often times I find when I get the inconsistent shifting in the middle of the cassette I replace the last piece of housing to the RDER. It seems to me that this is the point which often gets fouled and even a slight bit of friction can cause the inconsistent shifting you are experiencing. This is especially true when the shifting is wonky in both the up and downshift. Not always the solution but often works or me.
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Old 07-14-13, 07:52 PM
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I have experienced this problem as well. The high gear stop needs to be perfect. This can be difficult because of the range of misalignment with lack of noise. This will minimize minimize/eliminate the down shifting wonkiness. That is the starting point for the index's to follow.
I try to get crisp upshifts. The derailleur spring makes this movement. The down shift can always be given a hair extra movement to make the downshift.
Another thing I have noticed is a dry chain can make for goofy symptoms.
The cables need to be lubed, don't forget about the bottom bracket guide while you are at it.
All the above seemed to get my 10 speed acting right. Bought the bike used with low mileage.
Good luck.
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