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Potential First Wheel Build

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Potential First Wheel Build

Old 07-14-13, 10:43 AM
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MNX1024
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Potential First Wheel Build - Need Some Help

Finally decided on the parts I want for my first build and need some help determining spoke length.

Here are the hubs I'll be using:
SLF71W SuperLight Wide Front Hub
UL190 UltraLight Rear Hub

Now, I'm currently using the spoke length calculator provided on Sheldon Brown's website and here's what I did:

*using Pacenti SL23 rim in here



May someone please confirm for me that I have entered all the data correctly?

If everything is correct, I should be getting spokes in the following length:
280MM for Front Wheel
286MM(NDS)/282MM or 280MM? (DS) for Rear Wheel

Last edited by MNX1024; 07-15-13 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 07-14-13, 11:18 AM
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On the surface it all looks good, with no obvious errors. However no one but you can confirm the accuracy of the info you inputted, so double check that it's all correct.

Be aware, that just about the only two things that have a material impact on spoke length, is the wrong number of crosses, ie. calculate 3x, build 2x, and rim ERD which makes a difference of 1mm in spoke length for every 2mm error in the value. IME wrong ERD value is the single biggest cause of spoke length calculation errors.

Since it's critical, and there are so many errors in databases, I don't trust any published ERD info, and always measure rims myself.
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Old 07-14-13, 02:21 PM
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Assuming your numbers are correct, I'd round up the results, since you have what appears to be a double wall rim.
Front...281
Rear 287 & 283
I'd rather be 1mm long than 1mm short. Being double wall, IF a spoke end was protruding a hair too far, you don't have to worry about puncturing a tube.
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Old 07-15-13, 07:39 AM
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Thanks for the feed back guys. Just wanted someone to check over that I inputted the correct information from the dealer's website into the correct spot on the spoke calculator.

Quick curiosity on a few things. Do you guys lube the threads on the spoke? If so, any particular compound recommended? What's the prefered way of relieving the stress on the wheels?

Aside from this, anyone have a good read to recommend aside from Sheldon Brown's and Parktool's articles that pertain to wheel building and maintenance?

Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Assuming your numbers are correct, I'd round up the results, since you have what appears to be a double wall rim.
Front...281
Rear 287 & 283
I'd rather be 1mm long than 1mm short. Being double wall, IF a spoke end was protruding a hair too far, you don't have to worry about puncturing a tube.
I'm contemplating between DT Aerolite and Sapim CX-Ray. Both only sells in an even increment. Do you think I should go up to 282 for front and 288 & 284 for rear or 280F/286 & 282R?
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Old 07-15-13, 08:30 AM
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I use linseed oil for a thread lube/locker. After a week or so, it firms up, but you can still turn the nipples.
There are spoke preps, but they tend to be rather expensive for just one low spoke wheel set.

I use a small dab of grease for the nipple seat/rim interface. Others use oil. I just want to avoid the oil running over the rim surface.

Jobst Brandt's book "The Bicycle Wheel" is once source often quoted. There are others that other people like.

For a first time build, I'm not sure it's wise to do low spoke count and/or aero spokes.

I personally wouldn't use that rear hub.
With the extreme difference in flange offsets, your NDS spoke tension is only 45% of DS tension. I'm not real crazy about it when it's only 60%.
To get your NDS tension up to the 70 kgf recommended, you'd have to have DS tension at 155 kgf. That's way too much IMO.

Using Spocalc, I'll round up as much as 1.5mm on a double wall rim. That's from my personal experience using Sun Rims of a couple different flavors.
I'd hate to make a recommendation for an unknown (to me) rim.

You also have the wrong spoke hole diameter in your chart. They should be 2.6mm per your links.
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Old 07-15-13, 08:31 AM
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If you've got the time, order the rims first, and measure the ERD, like FBinNY suggests. The spoke calculators are accurate, but only as good as the data input to them. There are a few folks that have posted their techniques for ERD measurement here, so a search is is order.

But, on another level- a 20 spoke radial wheel with bladed spokes is maybe an aggressive first build. It would be best to get the techniques down by building a few traditional 32 or 36-spoke 3-cross wheels. My first couple of wheels were just barely adequate (I needed to rebuild one of them twice after making minor mistakes in lacing and their spokes weren't de-stressed correctly). Even now, after dozens of wheels, I wouldn't feel comfortable building low-spoke-count lightweight wheels- I leave that to the professionals. But you may be better at it than I was at first.

I round the spoke values down to the nearest integer. I've found that my measurements of ERD leave a little too much spoke poking through the nipple. YMMV. I'd go with 280,282 and 286, assuming the rims actually measure 588.

Blue Locktite works well as a spoke prep, but mostly I use nothing- just keep track of spoke windup.

Last edited by cycle_maven; 07-15-13 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 07-15-13, 06:27 PM
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BHS also sells the Pacenti rims, so you should probably just order everything from there. If you send him an email listing the parts you plan to use, I believe Brandon will figure out the appropriate spoke length for you.

By the way: Linseed oil works well as an assembly lube and mild thread locker. Never grease the threads on a radial wheel, it will unwind. Linseed oil has worked for me, but you gotta give it a few days to harden up before you ride it.

Last edited by dsaul; 07-15-13 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 07-16-13, 10:45 AM
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Alright, hubs and rims bought. Going to place an order for the spokes and tools sometimes today. Going to have fun once it gets here.

Wish me luck!

Quick question concerning the lacing for the rear. Are their any difference/advantage with a "2x NDS & DS" vs "Radial NDS & 2X DS"? Would spoke length be the same with either lacing patterns?

Aside from linseed oil, is there any other type of lubes I may use, not too keen on the thread locking properties?

Concerning radial patterns, I should not lube/grease it up at all when I build it?
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Old 07-16-13, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MNX1024 View Post

Quick question concerning the lacing for the rear. Are their any difference/advantage with a "2x NDS & DS" vs "Radial NDS & 2X DS"? Would spoke length be the same with either lacing patterns?

Aside from linseed oil, is there any other type of lubes I may use, not too keen on the thread locking properties?

Concerning radial patterns, I should not lube/grease it up at all when I build it?
They say you have to crawl before you can walk. Why don't you built your first wheel before getting into arcane discussions of subtleties? Built a standard 2x or 3x front wheel following whatever primer you're using. Then when you're ready you can experiment with variations on the theme.

As for thread lube, the opinions vary tremendously because so many things work. I use a stiff grease, others use a latex compound, linseed oil, adhesive thread lockers (I'm not a fan), and all manner of things. Pick one, build, see what you think based on your new experience, and either stay with it, or try something else next time.
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Old 07-16-13, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dsaul View Post
Never grease the threads on a radial wheel, it will unwind.
This has the smell of old wife tale.
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Old 07-16-13, 12:15 PM
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Linseed oil isn't going to "lock" the threads. it'll just provide some resistance to the nipples unscrewing by themselves. They will still be able to be turned easily enough with a spoke wrench.

For a first build, keep things simple.
Any advantage of radial spoke is insignificant. You save the weight of maybe 5" of spoke but incur a higher degree of difficulty. Maybe to the point of screwing up the wheel.

Did you ever correct the error in your chart I pointed out in a previous post?
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Old 07-16-13, 02:21 PM
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There's quite a difference in spoke length between radial and 2X lacing- if you want to do radial NDS with 2X DS, then order the drive side spokes for 2X length and the NDS spokes at 0X length. I'd still do 2X on both sides, though. Lacing 2X DS and 0X NDS will make for even worse tension imbalance between DS and NDS. It's already bad at 45%- that's a recipe for snapping spokes.

Mavic made some Ksyrum wheels with radial DS and 2X NDS in order to balance the spoke load a little better. But you better have a beefy hub if you want to do that.
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Old 07-17-13, 09:14 AM
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Does anyone have any idea which veloplug size I should be getting for the Pacenti SL23?

Mind if everyone share their prefer way of de-stressing the wheel?

Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Did you ever correct the error in your chart I pointed out in a previous post?
Yes I have, thanks for the heads up, just didn't upload it because it didn't make any significant changes to the spokes length. They're still 280F/282DS/286NDS. Also spoke with Brandon from BHS and he also recommended those spoke length. Fairwheelbikes also measured the ERD of the rims for me and indeed they're 588MM like the published numbers. For linseed oil, any particular brand/type you would recommend, or any over the counter linseed oil is good?

Originally Posted by cycle_maven View Post
There's quite a difference in spoke length between radial and 2X lacing- if you want to do radial NDS with 2X DS, then order the drive side spokes for 2X length and the NDS spokes at 0X length. I'd still do 2X on both sides, though. Lacing 2X DS and 0X NDS will make for even worse tension imbalance between DS and NDS. It's already bad at 45%- that's a recipe for snapping spokes.

Mavic made some Ksyrum wheels with radial DS and 2X NDS in order to balance the spoke load a little better. But you better have a beefy hub if you want to do that.
Was originally considering radial NDS and 2x DS because I'm use to maintaining them on my Soul S2.0, but after speaking with Brandon from BHS, he recommended to do 2x on both side for the UL190.
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Old 07-17-13, 09:34 AM
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Boiled linseed oil is thicker, slower to dry and commonly contains other stuff like plasticisers. Raw flaxseed oil is sold as a nutritional supplement, but goes rancid quickly. Use the boiled stuff since 8 ounces will last for about 2000 wheels. Or use the raw stuff and refrigerate the balance and add a tablespoon to your morning smoothie to get your lignins and oleic-3's. I doubt that there's a difference in performance as spoke prep.
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Old 07-17-13, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cycle_maven View Post
Boiled linseed oil is thicker, slower to dry and commonly contains other stuff like plasticisers. Raw flaxseed oil is sold as a nutritional supplement, but goes rancid quickly. Use the boiled stuff since 8 ounces will last for about 2000 wheels. Or use the raw stuff and refrigerate the balance and add a tablespoon to your morning smoothie to get your lignins and oleic-3's. I doubt that there's a difference in performance as spoke prep.
Guess anything is fine. Lucky I take flax seed oil as a supplement, so got plenty of those lying around. Do I really have to wait until it dries before I start riding the wheels?
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Old 07-17-13, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MNX1024 View Post
Guess anything is fine. Lucky I take flax seed oil as a supplement, so got plenty of those lying around. Do I really have to wait until it dries before I start riding the wheels?
I don't.
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Old 07-18-13, 10:35 AM
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Dumb question, but I really wanted to know.

Is it a good idea to use Parktool's Polylube 1000 to lube the threads on a spoke?
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Old 07-18-13, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MNX1024 View Post
Dumb question, but I really wanted to know.

Is it a good idea to use Parktool's Polylube 1000 to lube the threads on a spoke?
it's probably fine. I use a stiff sticky grease on threads, and have for almost 50 years, so i can't see how polylube would be bad.
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Old 07-23-13, 04:43 PM
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Alright guys, here's a status update. My rims and hubs came in, there's a delay in spokes, they should be here before the weekend.


Time for the weights!!!!!!
Also would like to apologize beforehand for the crappy pictures. Too annoyed from balancing my rims to bother with taking my DSLR out.


UL66



UL190



Pacenti SL23



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Old 07-24-13, 05:24 PM
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Spokes came in.


based on preliminary calculation, wheel should come in about 1370g. A bit higher than what I wanted, but still tolerable for what it offers.



Last edited by MNX1024; 07-25-13 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 07-28-13, 05:46 PM
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I'm still working on my front wheel, which is almost done.


By the way, my front came out to 601g.

Surprisingly I didn't need to dish my wheel at all, the rim was actually centered.


I do have a few questions.


How do I know when my stress relieving process is done? So far did it twice, both session includes me squeezing spokes and pressing on it from both side of the rim. There's actually no squeaking, creaking, or pinging noise throughout both of my sessions. Also, lubricated the spoke threads with refined linseed oil.


Concerning radial true. Can I actually make it completely radially trued? For me, there's 4 spokes that actually pulled the rim in more than the rest of the other spokes. I actually got it to about 1mm apart from the rest. In order to fix this by either dropping it lower or pulling the rest up, those 4 spokes' tension would be substantially lower than the rest. So, should proceed to fix that 1 mm or leave it as is?
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Old 07-28-13, 08:58 PM
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Is your radial error at the rim joint?
IF so, sometimes you have to live with a little flat spot.
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Old 07-29-13, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Is your radial error at the rim joint?
IF so, sometimes you have to live with a little flat spot.
That's something I didn't think about. Will check on it once I get home. Any advice for the stress relieving process?
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Old 07-29-13, 08:02 AM
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Stress relieving is done when the wheel is just as true after doing the stress relief as before... I never get to that point, but that's the goal. I stop at "true enough" after stress relieving.
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Old 07-29-13, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by cycle_maven View Post
Stress relieving is done when the wheel is just as true after doing the stress relief as before... I never get to that point, but that's the goal. I stop at "true enough" after stress relieving.
I did it three times so far. I do noticed that the first time it did go out of true by a very small amount and the tension dropped by 3 points(based off of Park Tool's tension meter, not kg/f). The second time it barely went out of true, but tension dropped by 1 point. As for the third time, about half a point, but did not go out of true. Just really curious at the fact that I did not hear any noise when stress relieving, when it's to be expected(?).
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