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My first build. Spoke lengths for Kinlin XR-300 rims and BHS - SLF85W and SL211 hubs.

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My first build. Spoke lengths for Kinlin XR-300 rims and BHS - SLF85W and SL211 hubs.

Old 08-27-13, 12:49 AM
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decycle
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My first build. Spoke lengths for Kinlin XR-300 rims and BHS - SLF85W and SL211 hubs.

This is going to be a long post so please be patient. If you lose your patience or get tired then go to the end of the post where there is a spreadsheet with all the numbers I have calculated and I ask for your opinion.

============================================================================
I'm going to build a new wheelset with Kinlin XR-300 rims, BHS SLF85W front hub (20h) and BHS SL211 rear hub (24h) and I'm trying to accurately calculate the spoke lengths I need to buy.

So while searching for information about the Kinlin XR-300 just to verify the published ERD, I stumbled upon a great thread on BF (https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...g-spoke-length) and I'm quoting some posts I think have helped me most.

Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
So you used an ERD 4mm larger than the mfgrs spec and got spokes 2mm to long. That makes perfect sense, so I suspect that you somehow mismeasured the ERD. Is it possible that you factored the 2mm thickness of the nipple heads twice?
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
One source of error is in the definition of ERD these days. Years ago we measured the rim diameter at the nipple seat. But sometime along the way Jobst Brandt defined (redefined) it to mean the diameter at the ends of the spokes. There's a difference of about 2mm (per side) because you want the spoke to end near the top of the nipple, or 2-3mm beyond the rim.

Most of the calculators use a formula which will have the spoke end at a diameter equal to the entered ERD, so you have a choice. Either allow for the head of the nipple and enter the ERD (as defined by JB) or do as I do, an measure the actual rim diameter and allow for the nipple at the end by adding 2-3mm to the computed spoke length.

Unfortunately there's no consistency here. Some manufactures publish the rim diameter (at the nipple seat) and others the ERD (RD + approx 5mm). Others might allow more or less for spoke engagement. Having to make an assumption about what the rim maker thought I might want for spoke engagement in the nipple makes the spec useless, which is why I don't bother with it.

Likewise some formulas add more or less to allow for nipple engagement, so if you don't know for sure who's doing what and by how much, you can end up with an answer that doesn't allow for nipple head engagement, or allows for twice.

BTW- this is an old and still running debate. Today most people are used to an ERD that allow for the nipple (don't ask me how much they allow) because that's been common since JB published his book. But many of us who were building wheels before JS's book, prefer actual measurements and prefer to make allowances ourselves because that way we know for sure what we're doing.
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
In this case the instructions were based on the nipple ending shy of the top of the nipple, allowing some room for elongation under tension. By measuring from the top of the nipple you biasedthe calculation to the high side and eliminated the margin for error.
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
577 for the XR-300 aims for the screwdriver flat of a 12mm standard profile nipple.

It would appear the OP was aiming for the top of the nipple - using box threaded spokes with quality nipples - that usually means you run out of threads before you've reached the desired tension.

Next time OP, aim for the flat of a 12mm.
The method I followed to measure the ERD was to use 2 spokes (275mm 2.0-1.8-2.0 each) and 2 12mm brass nipples but instead of cutting the spoke heads I just used a vernier caliper to measure the remaining distance between the two opposing spokes. I added this measured distance to the length of the spokes that was visible outside of the nipples and I added twice the 12.4 mm length of the nipples. This resulted in a 580mm ERD but I was very skeptical about it.

Then I read this about the screwdriver flat and instead of adding twice the 12.4 mm (that was what I measured with the vernier caliper for the "12mm" nipples) I added 11.45 (~1 mm less).
The new and corrected ERD is now 577.9 mm or 578mm when measured at different holes on the perimeter.

Coincidently I've also found this https://forums.roadbikereview.com/whe...00-174971.html and they were also reporting 578mm.

So what would you use? The measured 578mm or the published 577mm?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My plan is to lace the front radial. (I'll talk about the rear later in the post)

With the help of https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/ I get 274.4mm when I use ERD 577mm or 274.9mm spoke length for ERD 578, for the front radial. See the pics in links:

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r.../s603/577F.jpg

img--> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r.../s603/578F.jpg

Another calculator at https://leonard.io/edd/ gives me 274.5 for ERD 577 and 275mm for ERD 578 (radial lacing again and 20 spokes). See the pics in links:

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4...7F-leonard.jpg

img--> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X...8F-leonard.jpg

Spocalc gives me similar results with leonard's Edd. (274.5mm for ERD 577 and 275mm for ERD 578)

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-a...-XR300-577.jpg

img--> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X...calc-XR300.jpg

Originally Posted by jimc101 View Post
While edd gives me consistent results, prowheelbuilder says 275.8mm with ERD577 and 276.3mm with ERD578. It gives me 1.3mm longer spokes which makes me wonder why is it so different and whether this is the correct length or not.

img--> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Q...eelbuilder.jpg

img--> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...eelbuilder.jpg

Finally, using a little different method without ERD at https://www.sapim.eu/spoke-calculator? the calculated length is 275.1mm

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G...20/sapim-F.jpg

I'm going to buy Sapim CX-Ray spokes that come in even sizes, so can I safely say that 274mm is what I need to buy for the front radial?
============================================================================
And now for the rear wheel I'm planning to do half crow's foot. This is 2x on NDS and crow's foot with 2x on DS. This means I need 4 radial spokes and 8 crossed spokes for the DS.
I'm choosing "half crow's foot" because I read and article on https://spokeanwheel.110mb.com/lacingsr.htm#hc (it's not online now) that this build makes a strong rear wheel and I find this lacing interesting.

At https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/ I get 280.5mm when I use ERD 577mm
or 281mm for ERD 578, for the NDS with 2x.

For the DS the numbers are 262.9mm for the radial spokes and 276.1mm for the 2x spokes with ERD 577
or 263.4mm for the radial spokes and 276.6mm for the 2x spokes with ERD 578.
See the pics in links:

img--> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J.../s603/577R.jpg

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9.../s602/578R.jpg

At https://leonard.io/edd/ I get 280.6 for ERD 577
or 281.1mm for ERD 578 for the NDS with 2x.

For the DS the numbers are 263mm for the radial spokes and 276.2mm for the 2x spokes with ERD 577
or 263.5mm for the radial spokes and 276.7mm for the 2x spokes with ERD 578.
See the pics in links:

img--> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r...7R-leonard.jpg

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-w...8R-leonard.jpg

Spocalc gives me similar results with leonard's Edd. (280.6mm for ERD 577 or 281.1mm for ERD 578 for the NDS with 2x)

Similarly for the DS, 263mm for the radial and 276.1m for the 2x with ERD 577
or 263.5mm for the radial and 276.6mm for the 2x with ERD 578.
See pics:

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-a...-XR300-577.jpg

img--> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X...calc-XR300.jpg

Prowheelbuilder once more gives me longer spokes like in the front wheel.
It says 282.2mm with ERD577 and 282.7mm with ERD578 for the NDS. (1.6mm longer spokes than the other calculators.)

And for the DS 264.5mm for the radial and 277.6mm for the 2x with ERD 577
or 265mm for the radial and 278.1mm for the 2x with ERD 578
pics:

img--> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B...eelbuilder.jpg

img--> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-D...eelbuilder.jpg

img--> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Z...eelbuilder.jpg

img--> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i...eelbuilder.jpg

Finally, using the "ERD-less" method at https://www.sapim.eu/spoke-calculator? the calculated lengths are 281.1mm for the NDS
and 263.1mm for the radial and 277.1mm for the 2x for the DS

img--> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r...sapim-R-2x.jpg

img--> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q...sapim-R-0x.jpg

I'm going to buy Sapim CX-Ray spokes that come in even sizes for the NDS
and Sapim Race for the DS (that come in even sizes too) to equalise lateral stiffness on DS and NDS.
Now the choice is even more confusing and I know lot of you are very confused with this looooooong post


So I've made a spreadsheet with all the results from all these calculators


So, do I use the published ERD 577 or the measured ERD 578 to choose the spoke lengths and what spoke lengths would you buy?
Remember, even sizes only.
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Old 08-27-13, 05:41 AM
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Excuse me, but you are being silly here - you are talking about a diff of 1 mm or less in almost all of the examples for a given ERD - not important in any case, and especially not with a double-walled rim. Even 2 mm is not terrible (why do you suppose some suppliers only stock even sizes?) and your calcs only go there because you can't seem to choose one ERD over the other. The diff between 276.3 and 275.8 is .5mm, not 1.3mm.

Here's what I'd recommend so as to partially honor your extreme concern with the "right" length. Average all the results for each scenario, then go down in length to the next available spoke size. Or just throw out the Prowheelbuilder result and go to the closest (larger or smaller) available length.
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Old 08-27-13, 07:17 AM
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It looks like you're getting this stuff from Bikehubstore, so just ask Brandon and he will calculate the right spoke lengths for you.
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Old 08-27-13, 08:19 AM
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I'm curious why he posted the DS Radial chart?

Also, Spocalc shows the NDS tension @ 45% of DS. That's pretty low!

Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 08-27-13 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 08-27-13, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
Excuse me, but you are being silly here - you are talking about a diff of 1 mm or less in almost all of the examples for a given ERD - not important in any case, and especially not with a double-walled rim. Even 2 mm is not terrible and your calcs only go there because you can't seem to choose one ERD over the other. The diff between 276.3 and 275.8 is .5mm, not 1.3mm.


Here's what I'd recommend so as to partially honor your extreme concern with the "right" length. Average all the results for each scenario, then go down in length to the next available spoke size. Or just throw out the Prowheelbuilder result and go to the closest (larger or smaller) available length.
That's why I'm asking "do I use the published ERD 577 or the measured ERD 578 to choose the spoke lengths?".

I'm talking about the difference between the results I get from prowheelbuilder in comparison to edd or spocalc.
Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
(why do you suppose some suppliers only stock even sizes?)
I'm planning to buy from BHS and they are only showing even sizes on their website. See:
https://www.bikehubstore.com/product-p/zscxr.htm
https://www.bikehubstore.com/Sapim-Ra...k-p/zsr14b.htm
In case I need odd sizes, do you know where can I find them?

Originally Posted by dsaul View Post
It looks like you're getting this stuff from Bikehubstore, so just ask Brandon and he will calculate the right spoke lengths for you.
Yes. That's why I added the links to his store.
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
I'm curious why he posted the DS Radial chart?
Also, Spocalc shows the NDS tension @ 45% of DS. That's pretty low!
For the rear wheel I'm planning to do half crow's foot. This is 2x on NDS and crow's foot with 2x on DS. This means I need 4 radial spokes and 8 crossed spokes for the DS.
What would you do to improve the 45% in tension?
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Old 08-27-13, 09:11 AM
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Only way to improve the 45% tension is-
1. A hub with less difference between the center to flange offsets
OR
2. An offset rim.
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Old 08-27-13, 09:22 AM
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I've already bought both the rims and the hubs. I can't afford to buy new rims and hubs.
Can a different lacing or different gauges (like Cx-ray's and Races I'm planning to use) improve the tension?
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Old 08-27-13, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by decycle View Post
I've already bought both the rims and the hubs. I can't afford to buy new rims and hubs.
Can a different lacing or different gauges (like Cx-ray's and Races I'm planning to use) improve the tension?
You can't improve the static tension differential with different spoke gauges DS and NDS but you can improve the more important dynamic tension differential that way. The thinner gauge spokes stretch more for the same tension as a heavier gauge spoke. It follows then that they also lose less tension for a given amount of rim deflection (provided you don't exceed the stretch of even the thinner gauge spokes resulting in zero tension for either case).

I'm running DT Competition (basically the same as Sapim Race) DS spokes and DT Revolution (1.5mm center section) NDS on my commuter rear wheel (all Revolution up front) for this reason. However, I also chose to use an IRD Cadence VSR rear rim which has an offset spoke pattern versus the more popular Kinlin XR-200. On top of the fact that the IRD rims are eyeleted, the offset spoke pattern allowed me to achieve ~80% of DS spoke tension on the NDS. 45% would be a total put-off to me but seems common anyway. At least you'll have those thinner spokes of the NDS helping you out.
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Old 08-31-13, 12:05 AM
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...or lace all NDS spokes with elbows in.

This reduces the offset "virtually" for half the spokes by 4.2mm and half the spokes by 0.0mm.

Overall = average reduction "virtually" of the offset by 2.1mm.

=8-)
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Old 08-31-13, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
...or lace all NDS spokes with elbows in.
An answer with perfect timing! I'm lacing the rear wheel right now!

Is it possible to lace 2X with elbows-in only? Isn't it necessary to alternate the spokes with elbows-in, elbows-out?

---

PS:
I'm lacing 2X both DS and NDS. I'm not doing half crow's foot that I was writing about in previous posts.

Last edited by decycle; 08-31-13 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 08-31-13, 12:29 AM
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radial

Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
...or lace all NDS spokes with elbows in.

This reduces the offset "virtually" for half the spokes by 4.2mm and half the spokes by 0.0mm.

Overall = average reduction "virtually" of the offset by 2.1mm.

=8-)
Originally Posted by decycle View Post
An answer with perfect timing! I'm lacing the rear wheel right now!

Is it possible to lace 2X with elbows-in only? Isn't it necessary to alternate the spokes with elbows-in, elbows-out?
PS:
I'm lacing 2X both DS and NDS. I'm not doing half crow's foot that I was writing about in previous posts.

no, he is talking about radial nds.
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Old 08-31-13, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
no, he is talking about radial nds.
Oh! I already got 280mm spokes for the NDS. A radial NDS would require 270mm spokes. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9.../s602/578R.jpg
So I can't do radial with this length. Just 2X.
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Old 08-31-13, 12:46 AM
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no.

unless you cut them down.

just do 2x.
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Old 08-31-13, 12:52 AM
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You can do 2X interlaced - all elbows in. It may not please the eyes of some folks.

Some owner care, some don't.

It's pretty common on e-bike hubs for example - especially older model hub produced back when the engineers didn't quite understand the effects of offsets on tension.

AEO has a modified-triplet photo that shows interlacing with elbows out...

It's an aesthetics call - and it's your wheel...

=8-)

Understand that you'll want to do a quick double-check of the spoke length - don't expect much of a change - but doesn't hurt to check anyway.

For example, if the NDS offset was 32.5 - it now becomes 30.4.

=8-)
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Old 08-31-13, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
no.

unless you cut them down.

just do 2x.
I'm not cutting anything nor I have the tools to do it.

The front radial was very easy. Piece of cake.
The rear 2X is kind of confusing though with the leading and trailing spokes. I hope I don't mess it up.
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Old 08-31-13, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
AEO has a modified-triplet photo that shows interlacing with elbows out...
This user has 12,244 posts! Any help to find this photo?

Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
For example, if the NDS offset was 32.5 - it now becomes 30.4.
Do you mean the offset of the rim or the offset of the hub?

Kinlin XR-300 rims have 0 offset.
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Old 08-31-13, 01:58 AM
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Ok...decycle...listen carefully...

When you measure an offset for traditional lacing - you measure to the center of the flange. Why?

Because half of the spoke are on the outside - half are on the inside. The average and center between the two just so happens to coincide with the center of the flange. So normally - we just measure to the center of the flange. Straight forward. Piece of cake...

For most 135mm rear hubs - that will be 32.5mm NDS offset.

If you decide to move ALL spokes to the inside - your offset no longer resides in the center of the flange - it now resides at the center of the spoke shank against the inside of the flange. Center of flange to center of inside shanks = 2.1mm. That's roughly a 2.1mm shift inward...for 14g / 2.0mm spokes.

32.5m - 2.1mm = 30.4mm

In other words - all the spoke shanks at the elbows on the inside of the flange form their own circle - the center of which is your new reference for center-to-center-of-"" when doing spoke length calculation.

I didn't invent this idea, concept or description - no do I own it. Jobst among others has explained this in the past. It's old news...

=8-)
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Old 08-31-13, 02:01 AM
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Just send AEO a PM...heads up for this thread...

...I have the pics - but don't want to post 'em without his permission...let's see if I can find that thread...

=8-)
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 08-31-13, 02:10 AM
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...the old thread has been moved to archive...we'll just have to wait for AEO to show up.

=8-(
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Old 08-31-13, 01:58 PM
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I watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnE20NaopcQ by Roger Musson to better understand how a rear wheel is laced

And here are two photos from the DS from what I did today (the valve hole is at the bottom):

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l...o/I/2xDS-1.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0...M/I/2xDS-2.jpg

So I started with the leading spokes (I think Musson does the exact opposite of what Sheldon Brown does for wheelbuilding), then twisted the hub counterclockwise (so the valve hole will be between two parallel spokes) and then for the trailing spokes to do a 2x I simply laced them over-under and in the rim. Is that correct? Do you see any mistakes?

(The NDS is half finished)
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Old 08-31-13, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
...the old thread has been moved to archive...
The archive? Where can I find the archive?
I don't see any button or menu to go there. :???:

Last edited by decycle; 08-31-13 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 09-01-13, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by decycle View Post
The archive? Where can I find the archive?
I don't see any button or menu to go there. :???:
Don't bother...no photos...that's why we wait for AEO...

=8-)
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 09-01-13, 03:53 AM
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it's been a while, and I only skimmed through the thread, but I am guessing you want to see triplet lacing?






mrrabbit, you can repost the photos as much as you want
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Old 09-01-13, 08:51 PM
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So there you go OP courtesy of AEO:

In third photo - example of using interlacing with spokes all on one side of the flange...in this case...elbows out.

It'll work for 3-cross in 32/36 hole wheels - 2-cross in 24 hole wheels.

In your case, going elbows in will allow for a slight increase in tension for the NDS.

=8-)
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 09-02-13, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
In third photo - example of using interlacing with spokes all on one side of the flange...in this case...elbows out.

It'll work for ... 2-cross in 24 hole wheels.
Are you sure the third photo is a 2x in the NDS? It looks more like a 1x.
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
it's been a while, and I only skimmed through the thread, but I am guessing you want to see triplet lacing?




Isn't this a 3x/1x 16:8 lacing?

Last edited by decycle; 09-02-13 at 12:41 AM.
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