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Campagnolo lockring doesn't fit in Chorus hub?

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Campagnolo lockring doesn't fit in Chorus hub?

Old 09-15-13, 02:14 PM
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himespau 
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Campagnolo lockring doesn't fit in Chorus hub?

I'm building up a road bike from the frame in part for the experience. I have a little experience with working on other bikes, but am by no means an expert. This is my first time working with campagnolo. I have a set of wheels with campagnolo chorus hubs from the mid 90's (identified by folks on here, the seller told me they were late 90's record and I didn't know any better). The seller also told me that they're 9/10 speed hubs and they are silver like 9/10 speed hubs should be. I tried to put the cassette (10 speed veloce 12-25, if it matters) on for the first time today after truing them up and cleaning/repacking/adjusting the hubs. The sprockets and spacers all lined up with the splines and it went smoothly right until I got to the end. The lock ring diameter seems slightly too big to fit into the hub so I just can't thread it on there. Am I doing something wrong? Is there more than one kind of lock ring? Since the sprockets and spacers all fit in the splines, it seems like it's the right thing and someone didn't swap out a shimano hub on it or something, but that lockring just doesn't go in there. Any suggestions?

I've attached a picture of my hub in case that will provide any clues.

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Old 09-15-13, 03:35 PM
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There were generally 3 different size lockring threadings for campy freehubs in the mid-late 90s:
29/27/26mm

29x1 was used for 8speed freehubs/cassettes

27x1 and 26x1 were both used on 9speed freehubs/cassettes between 1997 and 2000 depending on the group and whether things were steel or titanium.

is your hub actually Chorus? or is it Athena? Athena used 26x1 where as I believe Chorus and Record used 27x1.

If you purchased an aftermarket lockring for your hubs then you may have purchased the wrong one.

-j
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Old 09-15-13, 03:40 PM
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When looking at the instructions for installing the cassette, they say something about how the lockring shouldn't be used with a z-type (I think that's what they called it) cassette with a knurled end. Would that type of cassette have a lock ring that would fit? The rest of the cassette fits just fine, so I'm confused as to why this doesn't work.

The wheels came with more wear on the front rim than I would like (opened the box, looked at the wheels generally to make sure they looked ok, but didn't look too closely as I was expecting to service the hubs and re-true, and by the time I'd gotten them out again and looked closely at the rim it was too late to complain on ebay), so I was planning on rebuilding with new rims, but I'm going to hold off on ordering new rims in case there's something wrong with these hubs (was just going to put tires and the cassette on to get the bike finished built and test ride and then probably take the wheels apart and rebuild them.
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Old 09-15-13, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenfieldja View Post
There were generally 3 different size lockring threadings for campy freehubs in the mid-late 90s:
29/27/26mm

29x1 was used for 8speed freehubs/cassettes

27x1 and 26x1 were both used on 9speed freehubs/cassettes between 1997 and 2000 depending on the group and whether things were steel or titanium.

is your hub actually Chorus? or is it Athena? Athena used 26x1 where as I believe Chorus and Record used 27x1.

If you purchased an aftermarket lockring for your hubs then you may have purchased the wrong one.

-j
Thanks for the reply, I think the hubs are Chorus because they have a grease port, but someone said there were characteristics that made them not Record (the only other one I know of that had the grease port at that time). The cassette is modern Veloce, so maybe it's the other size? Are both sizes of lockring still available if I can hunt one down? If so, would they work with a Veloce 10 speed cassette? I'd thought that all 9 speed hubs could be used with 10 speed, but maybe that's not the case.
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Old 09-15-13, 04:07 PM
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The cassette is not the issue as campy 9, 10, and 11 speed cassettes will fit on campy 9spd and up freehub bodies.

If I recall correctly the hub came with the lockring not the cassettes except those cassettes that came with an 11tooth small/outer cog (these used the same threading but had a smaller flange diameter for chain clearance between the cog and the lockring).

If your lockring won't fit then measure it to see if the threaded area is 27 or 26mm in diameter.

Google or Ebay Campagnolo CS-201 if you find that you need the 26x1. They are available but they are in the $35+ range.
-j

Last edited by Greenfieldja; 09-15-13 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 09-15-13, 05:42 PM
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OK, will have to remember to bring the calipers home from work tomorrow to check. Thanks.
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Old 09-15-13, 06:13 PM
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The thing that confuses me though is that I thought only Chorus and Record hubs of that era had the oil ports. Did others as well? If so, is there any way of telling which level it is that I have? Whatever it is, I'm beginning to think I vastly overpaid for this wheelset. I guess that's what I get for going in not knowing enough to do it right.
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Old 09-15-13, 06:43 PM
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It's not as if Campy didn't have the technology to put the model name on the parts. I like Campy, but they do some bonehead things sometimes.
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Old 09-15-13, 07:06 PM
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I really don't know why they wouldn't unless then they'd have to do something different to differentiate between parts besides price. It was my understanding that the main difference between chorus and record hubs of this era was that the pawls and axle were titanium in record and steel in chorus and then the lower levels had steel bodies with no grease port. Somehow I seem to have gotten a chorus body with an athena freehub. Is this what would have happened if it was originally an 8 speed body but someone put a 9/10 speed freehub on it after the fact?
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Old 09-15-13, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I have a little experience with working on other bikes, but am by no means an expert. This is my first time working with campagnolo. I have a set of wheels with campagnolo chorus hubs from the mid 90's (identified by folks on here, the seller told me they were late 90's record and I didn't know any better).
That's most likely a 1997-1998 Chorus hub which takes a 26x1mm lock-ring, not the 27x1mm which first showed up on the 1999 Chorus/Record hubs with over-sized aluminum axles or 29x1mm which goes with 8-speed hubs.

Part CS-301 will mate cassettes starting with an 11 cog to that hub and CS-201 all others.

Chorus hubs of that era had the grease ports and if it was a Record hub it'd have the ring on the skewer nut. Record hubs of that era had titanium axles and the Record freehub had a titanium pawl carrier.

It could also be an older hub on which some one retrofitted the newer 9 cog freehub - I installed Record 9 speed freehubs on my 1996 Chorus hubs when Campagnolo discontinued my favorite 8 speed cassette.

The splines and lock rings work for 10 cogs too - I moved on to that option in 2012.

The splines are also the same for 11 cogs. Campagnolo sells 11 speed specific 27x1mm lock rings which obviously won't work, although I haven't a clue what the difference is versus the 9/10 cog lock rings.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 09-15-13 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 09-15-13, 07:44 PM
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I was in the same dilemma as the OP at one stage, just bought a 26mm lockring from these guys http://clemenzo.com/index.php/compon...g,en/vmcchk,1/ , problem solved. Just make sure you get the correct one for your cassette 11T or 12T. Campy ones are a bit thin on the ground and these are cheaper.
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Old 09-15-13, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
That's most likely a 1997-1998 Chorus hub which takes a 26x1mm lock-ring, not the 27x1mm which first showed up on the 1999 Chorus/Record hubs with over-sized aluminum axles or 29x1mm which goes with 8-speed hubs.

Part CS-301 will mate cassettes starting with an 11 cog to that hub and CS-201 all others.

Chorus hubs of that era had the grease ports and if it was a Record hub it'd have the ring on the skewer nut. Record hubs of that era had titanium axles and the Record freehub had a titanium pawl carrier.

It could also be an older hub on which some one retrofitted the newer 9 cog freehub - I installed Record 9 speed freehubs on my 1996 Chorus hubs when Campagnolo discontinued my favorite 8 speed cassette.

The splines and lock rings work for 10 cogs too - I moved on to that option in 2012.

The splines are also the same for 11 cogs. Campagnolo sells 11 speed specific 27x1mm lock rings which obviously won't work, although I haven't a clue what the difference is versus the 9/10 cog lock rings.
Ok, thanks. I'll measure to make sure and then hunt down a CS-201. That'll require the same tool as the 27x1 mm lockrings, right? Also, stupid question, but how do 11 speed cassettes fit on this hub? The 10 speed just barely fits on the end.
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Old 09-15-13, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by darkhorse75 View Post
I was in the same dilemma as the OP at one stage, just bought a 26mm lockring from these guys http://clemenzo.com/index.php/compon...g,en/vmcchk,1/ , problem solved. Just make sure you get the correct one for your cassette 11T or 12T. Campy ones are a bit thin on the ground and these are cheaper.
Wow, those are a lot cheaper. Not sure if they sell to the states but definitely something to look into.
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Old 09-15-13, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Ok, thanks. I'll measure to make sure and then hunt down a CS-201. That'll require the same tool as the 27x1 mm lockrings, right? Also, stupid question, but how do 11 speed cassettes fit on this hub? The 10 speed just barely fits on the end.

Yes, same tool. The tool will also work on the Record and Chorus cartridge bottom brackets.

I would recommend the Park BBT-5/FR-11 tool as it is relatively inexpensive and widely available from a number of sources...and I think Park is a very good company especially from a customer service standpoint.

The CS-201 is for 12 tooth small/outer cogs
The CS-301 is for 11 tooth small/outer cogs

Good luck,

-j
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Old 09-16-13, 04:25 AM
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Thanks, that park tool is the one I have. It also worked on the Centaur cartridge bottom bracket I installed earlier.

I'm starting to wonder though with all the work that I have yet to make these wheels operational: new lockring, have to take them apart and rebuild at least the front one with a new rim (probably do the rear to match), if I shouldn't just take them apart and try to sell the hubs and just take a hit on that and buy a set of hubs that are exactly what I want if I am going to build wheels from scratch anyway.

I wonder how much I could get for the hubset. Are is there a market for used Chorus hubs?

I wouldn't particularly want to sell them as a wheelset as I don't have a box to ship them as full wheels and wouldn't want to surprise someone with a front rim that's a bit iffy the way I got surprised. Or maybe I should just stick them out. I mean I already did service these hubs and learn something there.

Last edited by himespau; 09-16-13 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 09-16-13, 04:29 AM
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A ~1 mm (maybe a little more, I don't have a good way to measure that just held a straight edge up and looked at how much light was getting through, maybe more like 1.5-2mm) deep groove in the brake track is a sign that I should be replacing the rim, right? Or am I just being overly cautious?
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Old 09-16-13, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post

I wonder how much I could get for the hubset. Are is there a market for used Chorus hubs?
I think they are pretty well regarded. When I was shopping for Record hubs they were fairly pricey. Maybe Ebay "Completed listings" has actual sale prices ?
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Old 09-16-13, 07:33 AM
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I have racked up 10s of thousands of miles over the years and never had a rim fail due to brake wear; though that does not mean it doesn't happen as I am sure many can give their annecdotal accounts of it happening to them. That being said, I am under the impression that there would be signs that rim failure at the sidewall is becomming imminent which would prevent catastrophe. Without seeing a few pictures of your rims it is impossible for anyone to really give you an adequate evaluation. Some rims come with a wear groove machined into the sidewall of the rim...this groove is usually not much more than 1 to 2mm deep...is this what you are looking at? one would replace this type of rim when the sidewall wears to the point that the groove is going away. Or do you have gouges worn into your rim(s) from something that was imbedded in the original owner's brake pads?

My recommendation is to ride the wheels until such time that the rims are in definite need of replacement. You will then have good hubs with which to build new wheels around.

The only issue you will have is if you wanted to use the wheels on an 11 speed system as my understanding is the 11 speed lockring has a longer threaded area to accomodate the slightly greater overhang of an 11 cog cassette. Currently this is only available in the 27x1 size.

Should you decide to go 11speeds in the future you could purchase a 1999 or newer freehub body to swap out your 97/98 freehub body...the campy freehub body from 9speed on readilly accepts 9, 10, or 11 cog campy cassettes...the only issue is the first generation 9speed hubs from 97/98 with the smaller lockring...only a problem with 11 cogs.

If you want to sell them, shoot me a PM with what you think you want for the hubs. I need to build a set of wheels for my daughter to build her a road bike around a 10spd veloce group I got a screaming deal on (40 euros).

-j

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Old 09-16-13, 08:09 AM
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Eh, I'll probably just keep them as I don't plan on going to 11 speed. Was just a little frustrated because what I'd thought was a decent deal at $200 for what were advertised as campagnolo record hubs laced to mavic cxp-33 rims in good shape with normal but not too bad wear on the brake track isn't seeming like a good deal anymore. Sure they're heavy, but when I bought them I weighed 240 lbs, so a set of 36h wheels with moderate profile rims seemed like a good way to go. Now, if I end up getting new rims and spokes, that's looking like ~$200 more and maybe closer to $250 with the lockring, so I'll end up out $450 for an almost 5 lb wheelset. Oh well, I guess that's what I get for going in without understanding what I was getting myself into.

These rims are old enough that they don't have a wear indicator. There's a groove the width of a brake pad that's fairly deep. I'll probably put a straight edge against the rim again and put a pencil in and then measure how far the lead went down or something to get a feel for how deep it is. I just don't know how to tell that a rim is reaching that point when it needs replacing as all my bikes to this point have been cheaper mountain bikes (some that I've put drop bars on for commuting) and wheels have been bent up through use, racks, or vandals long before they've worn out.

I suppose a cheaper earlier alternative is to keep this wheels and over the winter swap the rims so the worn one is in the back (don't do too much rear braking anyway) and then just build a new wheelset more to my liking over time.

Wow, $40 for a Veloce group is a great deal.
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Old 09-16-13, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I'm starting to wonder though with all the work that I have yet to make these wheels operational: new lockring, have to take them apart and rebuild at least the front one with a new rim (probably do the rear to match), if I shouldn't just take them apart and try to sell the hubs and just take a hit on that and buy a set of hubs that are exactly what I want if I am going to build wheels from scratch anyway.

I wonder how much I could get for the hubset. Are is there a market for used Chorus hubs?
IIRC, Campy hubs of that period came with the lockring as part of the hub and Campy Cassettes (except those starting with an 11T cog) did not include the lockring. So, if you are going to sell the hubs, a knowledgeable buyer will expect the lockring to be included.

I have racked up 10s of thousands of miles over the years and never had a rim fail due to brake wear; though that does not mean it doesn't happen as I am sure many can give their annecdotal accounts of it happening to them.
I've had two rear rims fail by cracking through the brake track from abrasive wear on bikes ridden in all-weather conditions. The first was a Mavic Open 4CD (the predecessor to the current Open Pro) that failed at just under 12,000 miles. The second was a Matrix (Trek's house brand) rim that cracked at about 29,000 miles. I have also retired a couple of wheels before they actually cracked but the brake tracks were noticeably and badly worn after about 30,000 miles.

For wheels ridden almost exclusively in good weather, I have no noticeable brake drack damage in over 25,000 miles each on two sets and they are still in daily use. My rain bike eats rims a lot faster but that's expected from that kind of routine abuse and I replace them when they look worn rather than wait for failure.
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Old 09-16-13, 08:22 AM
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Find out what the ERD of CXP-33 rims are and find an affordable replacement with the same ERD...detension the wheel, tape the new rim to the wheel and move the spokes and nipples to the new rim 1 by 1. Tension, true, and dish the new wheel and get out there and ride. That will be the least expensive way to get these built up. Also, your original description of the worn grove in the rim was not very descriptive but your last post made it very clear that it might be a good time to shop for a replacement rim. Unless there are significant issues with the spokes, such as corrosion, or they are breaking while riding, go ahead an reuse them....to make getting these out on the road a bit less costly. Should you find you are having spoke issues later you can start saving up some cash to rebuild with new spokes.

Don't feel too bad about what you spent on the wheels...if the bearings are smooth then you got a great set of hubs that should outlive your needs and you also got a bit of an education about caveat emptor that will serve you well with other internet and non-internet purchases in the future.

Cheers,
-j
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Old 09-16-13, 08:42 AM
  #22  
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Huh, I hadn't considered finding a different rim with the same ERD. I'd just noticed that it's near impossible to find these exact rims. There are two for sale on ebay right now and one of them would cost more than a new set of everything for both wheels and the other would cost more than 2 new rims for transatlantic shipping. I guess they're no longer made and stocks are slowly disappearing, but it never occurred to me that other rims might have the same ERD. I can look into that.
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Old 09-16-13, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Huh, I hadn't considered finding a different rim with the same ERD. I'd just noticed that it's near impossible to find these exact rims. There are two for sale on ebay right now and one of them would cost more than a new set of everything for both wheels and the other would cost more than 2 new rims for transatlantic shipping. I guess they're no longer made and stocks are slowly disappearing, but it never occurred to me that other rims might have the same ERD. I can look into that.
The CXP-33 is certainly still made. They aren't particularly cheap but are very strong and durable. Here is one domestic source: http://www.coloradocyclist.com/product/item/MAVCRPW4
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Old 09-16-13, 09:27 AM
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huh, I guess I didn't put the necessary space in there when I did my google search. Thanks. Yeah, not particularly cheap, but just replacing the one rim, might be cheaper overall. Thanks.
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Old 09-16-13, 05:32 PM
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Well, you guys called it. 26 mm. Fortunately, I found someone (biketiresdirect.com) selling a 26.0 campy 9/10 speed lockring for 12/16 teeth for ~$20. That didn't include shipping, but they had a decent price on some tubes and I needed some of those too, so it didn't end up too bad.

This is what I'm looking at with the depression on the rims. Not a great picture I know.

When I stuck a pencil lead so that it touched the lowest point of the rim to my straight edge, it was about 1-1.5 mm deep.

Without the skewers (and I have a couple sets sitting around, so I may have put the wrong ones on) that @Drew Eckhardt mentioned, is there a way to tell the difference between Chorus and Record? The guy I bought it from showed a fair number of pictures on his ebay ad saying they were record hubs with titanium axles, so I doubt he would have knowingly misled me as he had a pretty good rating and anyone who knew what they were looking at could have called him on it. Still could have happened, I suppose.

Couple more pictures of the hub in case I said something wrong before (not that I doubt any of you guys' expertise):




Would the titanium axle be more of a silver color than the darker brown one that I have?

One more question: When I repacked and adjusted the hub, I may have put a little much grease in there as I see a little seems to have seeped out around the dust cover. Is that bad?
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